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HD650 uses HD580 drivers?? - Page 28

post #406 of 502
I'd say a 900 post thread on driver labelling is a good example of why people shouldn't get worked up over things they read on the internet. Use your ears. If you like the way they sound, buy or keep the headphones, and if you don't, sell them. Manufacturers really don't owe anyone information, you aren't buying information, you're buying the headphones they send you. If you're concerned you may not get what you expect, order from reputable dealers, so you can return them if you need to.
post #407 of 502
"Manufacturers really don't owe anyone information, you aren't buying information...."

They do, if they want our money in the future.

And in the postmodern, late-capitalist economy, just about the ONLY things that we're buying are ineffable and intangible: information, "prestige," status, subjective pleasure. We don't need no more stinkin' headphones or headphone amps. We're now buying a STORY, as Tyll seems to know better than anyone else. We can get cans and amps anywhere.

You may not want to live in this world of images, marketing b.s., public relations, and "stories," but you do, and you can't extricate yourself.

What this thread constitutes is not people "getting worked up," as you so condescendingly and rather bloodlessly put it, but, rather, a failure on Sennheisers' part to tell us the proper "story."

I'd suggest that that's a result of an insular, engineering culture, where customers or potential customers are seen as an annoying burden rather than a necessity if they want to continue "playing engineer" or "playing businessman."

"If it weren't for our customers, we could run an ideal business!" is, all too frequently, the sentiment, at least in businesses in decline or imminent decline.
post #408 of 502
I'd be willing to bet the number of people concerned with what is screen printed on the driver isn't even a blip on sennheiser's radar.
post #409 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by grawk View Post
Manufacturers really don't owe anyone information, you aren't buying information....
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggf View Post
They do, if they want our money in the future.
Yeah, good point.

You're buying into an ethos. As they say; making a first impression is easy, be it bad or good, but its much harder to turn a bad impression around later.

Sennheiser have made no good impressions with this thread. In fact its stopped 4 people buying a 650.



Too late for a simple apology now. I think they should send everyone who can prove purchase $200.
post #410 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggf View Post
We're now buying a STORY, as Tyll seems to know better than anyone else. We can get cans and amps anywhere.

You may not want to live in this world of images, marketing b.s., public relations, and "stories," but you do, and you can't extricate yourself.

What this thread constitutes is not people "getting worked up," as you so condescendingly and rather bloodlessly put it, but, rather, a failure on Sennheisers' part to tell us the proper "story."
Greg ... dude ... so, you're a philosopher, eh. I LIKE that!

You are so right! But you're also about a mile over most peoples head, so don't expect much in the way of clear response to your comment. But I think you're dead right.

<rant>

The information age is misslabled; it should be called "The Age of Meaning." Information is just raw data, but meaning ... ahhhhh .... that can only be delivered by "story." I think "story" is actually a dimension. Three dimensions give you things; a fourth can gives you the opportunity to view the thing over and over with the opportunity to change; but a fifth would would give you the opportunity to view series of actions over and over and parse for meaning and moral. Then you can modify whole series of actions to deliver new meanings. Enough dimensions like that and you begin to be able to explain consciousness as a geometrical concept.

OK, yeah, over the top. But maybe you get it. Let me drop back a dimension or two.

Go back 200 years; how many "stories" did a person get exposed to over a lifetime. They maybe read 100 books, and heard 100 fairy tales; and heard a few dozen or so stories per day from family, friends, and aquaintences. But today! Every commercial is a story. Each thread here is a story. We have meaning after meaning crammed down our throats. We get 100 storys an hour off the TV. Many different and novel. I think we live in an age where people have massive performance anxiety because they can't generate their own stories with the speed and novelty that they are exposed to. People subconsciously want to be a funny as Sienfeld, as smart as Einstein, and as compasionate as Oprah. But there's no friggen way! It's why fundimentalists are so vehament, they think that their moral constructs should have the same kind of power as TV, but they're two very different things. Moral constructs are being challanged and pummeld with novel new meanings like never before. Old moral constructs are being overwhelmed by the need to become more sophistacated to deal with the onslought of meanings.

Should I step back another notch? Yeah, Sennheiser, AKG, Sony, HeadRoom, anycorp, has the opportunity to breath life into their company like no other time before, and really engage people with who they are and what they stand for. I can tell you, I've been to Sennheiser's headquarters, and they have a KILLER story to tell. I've rarely seen a company so dedicated to product excellence and so strongly invested in working things through so as to produce excellent quality product. They have a GREAT story to tell! Now they just have to figure out how to take off the suits and tell it. And this is no great knock on Sennheiser in particular; it's the great challange of this age. I got lucky; I didn't have a culture that needed changing before I embraced the internet. HeadRoom was born here, it grew up here, and we really don't know how to do it any other way. Not that we do it well, or as good as the big boys could if they put their mind to it. But because we're trying and many are not, we've got our oars in the waters of the new age while their plying the backwaters, and we're slowly but surely getting ahead.

</rant>

Well, congrats Greg, you got me going.
post #411 of 502
All of this reminds me of the conversation with the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo at the end of Metal Gear Solid 2, and how they talk about the accumulation of mountains of useless raw information ("ready-made truths") needing the proper context in order to be interpreted correctly.
post #412 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post
Greg ... dude ... so, you're a philosopher, eh. I LIKE that!

You are so right! But you're also about a mile over most peoples head, so don't expect much in the way of clear response to your comment. But I think you're dead right.

<rant>

The information age is misslabled; it should be called "The Age of Meaning." Information is just raw data, but meaning ... ahhhhh .... that can only be delivered by "story." I think "story" is actually a dimension. Three dimensions give you things; a fourth can gives you the opportunity to view the thing over and over with the opportunity to change; but a fifth would would give you the opportunity to view series of actions over and over and parse for meaning and moral. Then you can modify whole series of actions to deliver new meanings. Enough dimensions like that and you begin to be able to explain consciousness as a geometrical concept.

OK, yeah, over the top. But maybe you get it. Let me drop back a dimension or two.

Go back 200 years; how many "stories" did a person get exposed to over a lifetime. They maybe read 100 books, and heard 100 fairy tales; and heard a few dozen or so stories per day from family, friends, and aquaintences. But today! Every commercial is a story. Each thread here is a story. We have meaning after meaning crammed down our throats. We get 100 storys an hour off the TV. Many different and novel. I think we live in an age where people have massive performance anxiety because they can't generate their own stories with the speed and novelty that they are exposed to. People subconsciously want to be a funny as Sienfeld, as smart as Einstein, and as compasionate as Oprah. But there's no friggen way! It's why fundimentalists are so vehament, they think that their moral constructs should have the same kind of power as TV, but they're two very different things. Moral constructs are being challanged and pummeld with novel new meanings like never before. Old moral constructs are being overwhelmed by the need to become more sophistacated to deal with the onslought of meanings.

Should I step back another notch? Yeah, Sennheiser, AKG, Sony, HeadRoom, anycorp, has the opportunity to breath life into their company like no other time before, and really engage people with who they are and what they stand for. I can tell you, I've been to Sennheiser's headquarters, and they have a KILLER story to tell. I've rarely seen a company so dedicated to product excellence and so strongly invested in working things through so as to produce excellent quality product. They have a GREAT story to tell! Now they just have to figure out how to take off the suits and tell it. And this is no great knock on Sennheiser in particular; it's the great challange of this age. I got lucky; I didn't have a culture that needed changing before I embraced the internet. HeadRoom was born here, it grew up here, and we really don't know how to do it any other way. Not that we do it well, or as good as the big boys could if they put their mind to it. But because we're trying and many are not, we've got our oars in the waters of the new age while their plying the backwaters, and we're slowly but surely getting ahead.

</rant>

Well, congrats Greg, you got me going.
Dude! So what did Sennheiser have to say?
post #413 of 502
..
post #414 of 502
Adding to the rant.

I think that the true power of the internet (which comes with some down sides too), is the ability for an individual to communicate with an audience that they normally could not. Thanks to Tyll we have some more information on the matter, but it even more clearly points out that Sennheiser should have done more. Not only can individuals use the internet to communicate with big companies, but the opposite is possible and THAT is a great way to inspire 'brand confidence' and loyalty.

Kudos to Tyll for taking time to read this and act on it... I am sure he is busy with his work just as much as the many people who work at Sennheiser.
post #415 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post
Greg ... dude ... so, you're a philosopher, eh. I LIKE that!

You are so right! But you're also about a mile over most peoples head, so don't expect much in the way of clear response to your comment. But I think you're dead right.

<rant>

The information age is misslabled; it should be called "The Age of Meaning."
I saw this video recently and thought it apropos.
post #416 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Monkey View Post
I saw this video recently and thought it apropos.
Most excellent. Something somewhat exactly like that. Nice catch.
post #417 of 502
TheMonkey,

Ya! Ya! Great video!! Thanks..........


=gregg=
post #418 of 502
my god !
post #419 of 502
Okie dokie; back to our regularly scheduled broadcast:

I just recieved this correspondance from Katrin Huss:

"Dear Tyll,
thanks for adressing this issue to us. It is my pleasure to share with you (and the head-fi.org group) the background.

Sennheiser has an excellent reputation for the quality of its products.
One of the methods to prevent mistakes in production you just observed. The membrane material for HD 580/600/650 is indeed the same, although the drivers are different. The printing shows up on the foil regularly, but not on every single membrane. This is the reason why not all of the drivers show the printing. However it helps helps our production team to check if the material is the correct one during the production setup.

So what was observed is not a wrong driver but a proof for a good quality process set-up.

I hope this information helps to settle the discussion. Please feel free to contact me again in case of any questions.

I just planned my trip to CES and hope to meet you again there!

Best regards,
Katrin Huss

Product Marketing Manager"

So, the deal is basically what I assumed: they instantiated another quality step in the manufacturing process by lableing the diaphragm materials and the 580, 600, and 650 all share the same diaphragm. Basta!

Now, about this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greggf
I'd suggest that that's a result of an insular, engineering culture, where customers or potential customers are seen as an annoying burden rather than a necessity if they want to continue "playing engineer" or "playing businessman."

"If it weren't for our customers, we could run an ideal business!" is, all too frequently, the sentiment, at least in businesses in decline or imminent decline.
There is a clear undertone running through this entir thread that is similar to this statement. It boild down to people looking at corporations and summing them up in rather simple manner. The above is one example where a corporate entity is characterised as having a common "group think"; or when someone sees "580" printed on their cans and assumes they corp is evil and is dumping old drivers in anticipation of a comming model. These are actually VERY unrealistic assumptions that show a lack of knowledge about the real problems of achieving a corporate learning to deliver "brand."

Companies are made of a bunch of individuals. Some are engineers who are thinking about product and are not really thinking too much about customers. That's their job. Others---like Katrin above --- are thinking VERY hard about customers. She digests what customers want and interprets that into product definitions that the engineers work against. I have had numerous discussions with Katrin and I can tell you she is extremely customer oriented. Sennheiser's corporate culture is very strong and focussed on performance and quality .... in every possible way. But that doesn't mean that it manages to propigate perfectly out to all the employees all over the world. There isn't some magic kool-aid that you can drink that causes you to instantly internalize the corporate mission or learn everything that is known at headquarters. Even here at HeadRoom we've had to formalize "sales training" so that we all learn from each other and that we're all more closely on the same page.

Sheesh! I'm really laboring here to say that the assumption on the part of outsiders that the motives and actions within a company can be easily summed up as conscious corporate descisions comming from collective thinking is not realistic. Just managing to think together at all, even in a small company like HeadRoom is extremely difficult. Corporate entities are dramatically more complex than humans --- which are pretty damn complex --- because thay are made of many humans. To oversimplify and anthropomorphize them is ignorant of that real difficulties involved.

Got to go. Go ahead and buy some 650s; they're sweet and ever more likely to be consistantly so as Sennheiser continues to improve their manufacturing process. And as this community grows and (hopefully) matures, Sennheiser is likely to participate ever more strongly. I'll mention that if you lok to your right you'll see them on the sponsor list. I'll also remind you to notice the folks that aren't on that list, but participate in the market advantages of participartion at Head-Fi and it's events. Sennheiser has made very real moves towards embracing this community, even if they haven't begun to participate as a voice in the forums.
post #420 of 502
Thanks Tyll, now in the spirit of this thread I think all the Senn bashers should be forced to issue a very public apology for all of the hate that's been spewed.
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