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HD650 uses HD580 drivers?? - Page 27

post #391 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chri5peed View Post
^ Well that suggests its a Euro problem.
Just want to mention here that it's likely NOT a problem at all in my mind. Manufacturers make little changes all the time that might b confusing to the customer. In my experience---certainly with our gear---these changes are usually for the better .... at least when you're talking about high-end audio gear. So, I just caution you against "spinning" or "framing" this as a problem when you talk about it.
post #392 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post
Just want to mention here that it's likely NOT a problem at all in my mind. Manufacturers make little changes all the time that might b confusing to the customer. In my experience---certainly with our gear---these changes are usually for the better .... at least when you're talking about high-end audio gear. So, I just caution you against "spinning" or "framing" this as a problem when you talk about it.

When this happens, I agree its likely not a derogatory problem, but purposefully making significant changes to a product and not informing the customer is a problem at a base level.

How hard was it to stick a small letter of explanation in new 650 boxes?

A German company too.



I'm not bashing them, its not a G-like lapse in QC.
post #393 of 502
Well, since typical users of headphones do not open the cans to see drivers often....
post #394 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post
Hi Guys!
I'm back! And guess what my first task was? To read 20 pages of speculation! Oh well, that's life.

So, I'll start with my speculation. My guess is that Sennheiser changed some manufacturing process and started laser labling diaphragms. I'd bet the 580, 600, and 650 DIAPHRAGM was exactly the same design, so the manufacturing documentation for it probably says "HD580" and that's what got put on the diaphragms as they were built.

I checked some of our 580s, and there's no HD580 with labels on the diaphragm. What that means to me is that the 580 never had lables on the driver and what were seeing is new drivers with lables from eng documents. Why else otherwize would these drivers just start showing up. And don't say because they are using old diaphragms, because the old 580 diaphragms weren't labled.

Anyway ..... I am curious. So, one thing we're doing is measuring some older 650s and some of the newer 650s. All the new 650 we have in stock do say 580 on the driver. Since you can tell the difference between 600s and 650s (BTW I don't subscribe to there being as much difference as many would claim, but there are measurable differences) this should be pretty diffinitive.

However, additionally, I've sent some emails off to Germany to some of the folks I know there and we'll see if I get any answers.
I see this in a more positive way, if Tyll's guess is vaild then Senn is actually upgrading the manufacturing process in preparing .....for the next HDxxx
post #395 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnmnkh View Post
Well, since typical users of headphones do not open the cans to see drivers often....
I suspect owners of 650s might. It only requires pulling off pads to clean them.
post #396 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chri5peed View Post
How hard was it to stick a small letter of explanation in new 650 boxes?
What was this letter supposed to say, "Dear customer, your HD650 uses the same driver that the old model used, in case you were wondering."
post #397 of 502
^ Yeah exactly.

If the trouble is how Tyll suggests it is, something explaining, what we've been waiting for in this thread.

If it is a proper mistake Sennheiser obviously won't address it,


'Dear User,

Oops, sorry we screwed up. We accidentally put 580 drivers in your new 650s. Don't bother to complain, we won't respond.

Love Sennheiser.'
post #398 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post
And don't say because they are using old diaphragms, because the old 580 diaphragms weren't labled.
That is probably the biggest piece of evidence against the HD650's using the HD580 drivers. Nice bit of insight
post #399 of 502
I find it quite odd that people of a few different countries can not get through to Sennheiser through any channels including telephone,e-mail, letters, using many different addresses.
How does a distributer contact them to order?
Has anyone tried smoke signals,telegraph and morse code,Ham Radio,or even throwing a rock through Sennheisers window?
I bet if you sent a naked picture of the President of Sennheiser to the company , ANYWHERE TO THE COMPANY, you'd get a response!!!

Its just too rediculous to me. I can call Canon,Nikon,HP,Epson,Yaesu,Kenwood,ICOM,AKG,KOSS, and RadioShack, and i can reach someone!!! Theyre all big companies!!!

Individuals from a few countries cant reach the secret underground Illuminati, code named "Sennheiser" by us meaningless citizens who arent "in the know", but any other company can be reached quite easily actually.

Sorry,but i see a major screw up and a cover up by blocking communication. Just my opinion. Ive called companies for years and never had as much trouble as everyone here is having. I just called Bryston the other day for information and had no problem, and theyre in Canada and im in USA. I have no problem calling Rotel or B&W in the UK either.

Sure ,make fun in a whole thread about the Grado Facility in a Brooklyn,NY apartment,.......but i can call them and get an answer now!

Bah!
post #400 of 502
I agree. Sennheiser's choice to play the "dumb" card here, was/is, well, dumb!
The longer they wait to respond, the more damage is done to their reputation as a company who has any interest at all in their customer base. Gee whizz, a simple and truthful explanation is all that was asked for!
post #401 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chri5peed View Post
When this happens, I agree its likely not a derogatory problem, but purposefully making significant changes to a product and not informing the customer is a problem at a base level.

How hard was it to stick a small letter of explanation in new 650 boxes?
I'm sorry, but I find that really unrealistic. First of all, we don't even know what changes, if any, were made besides the "hd580" labeling. Calling it significant, based on the information we have now, is presumptuous.

Additionally, the percentage of HD650 buyers who would take apart their phones to look at the diaphragm is likely to be very low. (Before the OP posted, was anyone else even aware of this?) Inserting such a letter would likely cause a lot of confusion. Is the old 650 better or the new one? In all likelihood, the change is insignificant. Why cause confusion when it's not necessary?

As I said previously, Sennheiser has done a terrible job of communication to this point. The remarks of the representative who posted in this thread were not helpful. The longer they wait to respond, the more the speculation will increase, and the more damage will be done to their reputation, regardless of whether the accusations are true or not.

Hopefully, answers will be forthcoming soon.
post #402 of 502
Okie dokie, Joe W. did some measurements last night and here's the data:


Obviously the current diaphragms with the "580" markings are much more similar to the 650 than the 580. In fact, the data looks ever so slightly more smooth. Based on this data, I wouldn't be afraid to buy the current product; it does apear to be a HD650.

I admit it's too bad that Sennheiser has been unresponsive on this issue. Maybe they'll decide one day to participate more strongly with the community here. But I do have to remind you that this place can be a black hole for the need to respond. I've been pretty burried in work lately and haven't had much chance to participate here, and I know that if it goes on for much longer I'll start to risk the unwarrented anxious wrath of the members. The Internet is a harsh taskmaster for copious communications; I don't find it surprising at all that bi companies are reluctant to participate. On the other hand, I do think they're missing out on the opportunity to create market barriers by adopting early and learning how to communicate in this arena. Yes, corporate learning is difficult, but without a contemporary education you'll fade in the long run. C'mon Sennheiser, do the hard work and reap the benefits. Let's hear a cogent response!
post #403 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post
Okie dokie, Joe W. did some measurements last night and here's the data:


Obviously the current diaphragms with the "580" markings are much more similar to the 650 than the 580. In fact, the data looks ever so slightly more smooth. Based on this data, I wouldn't be afraid to buy the current product; it does apear to be a HD650.

I admit it's too bad that Sennheiser has been unresponsive on this issue. Maybe they'll decide one day to participate more strongly with the community here. But I do have to remind you that this place can be a black hole for the need to respond. I've been pretty burried in work lately and haven't had much chance to participate here, and I know that if it goes on for much longer I'll start to risk the unwarrented anxious wrath of the members. The Internet is a harsh taskmaster for copious communications; I don't find it surprising at all that bi companies are reluctant to participate. On the other hand, I do think they're missing out on the opportunity to create market barriers by adopting early and learning how to communicate in this arena. Yes, corporate learning is difficult, but without a contemporary education you'll fade in the long run. C'mon Sennheiser, do the hard work and reap the benefits. Let's hear a cogent response!
Joe done good! I would say that whatever the difference between the 580 and 650, the differences between old and new 650s can be chalked up to "noise." This pretty clearly demonstrates that the new 650s are still HD650s.

Thank you Tyll for doing this for us. Now we wait to see if Sennheiser will, as you say, do the hard work of communicating a simple explanation.
post #404 of 502
Result of this thread:

- HD650 is HD650, no matter what the driver/diaphragm says

- Head-Fi's userbase gets on its back hoofs quickly

- Sennheiser's customer service is useless
post #405 of 502
I am just happy that the conclusion of this incident is good one.
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