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Bit of a beef with ALO - Page 9  

post #121 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
It doesn't have to be representative of a population for me.
I don't care if the cable I received was 1 out of 100. I paid a premium price, and I believe I have the right to expect premium work. QC had better be higher than that for me to consider the product to be worth the price. Of coarse my expectations drop with the price point. I don't find this at all unreasonable. If I bought a Lamborghini that had QC issues, the fact that the next 100 cars off the line didn't have those same issues brings me no comfort whatsoever.
So you get the 1 out of 100 cables that had a QC issue (I don't know if there was or wasn't a QC issue with the cable, just using your example). Contact Ken, give him an opportunity to make good. If he does, you get the cable you wanted. If he doesn't you post negative feedback. Just because one cable is bad doesn't mean Ken makes bad cables. It just means one was bad. Doesn't sound like a reason to start a thread.
post #122 of 211
I'm not particularly happy with the cable on my AKG501. It is quite soft and a simple velcro cable tie cut right through it. Should I be required to contact AKG before posting a review here at Head-Fi that includes a criticism of the stock cable?

I also don't see why the fact that this was only one unit should preclude him from starting a thread to discuss the issue. Discussion of audio products is what this forum is all about. Should any individual who likes his ALO cable be precluded from starting a thread praising it because he has only a single cable? No, of course not. People start such threads here all the time without falling prey to the type of attacks we've seen in this thread. People who have a criticism of a product should have the same opportunity to start a thread with their observations. Then people like me, who are potential customers, can get a balanced view of what this product is about and weigh all of the individual opinions to reach our own decisions. If this forum is limited only to positive reviews, then all of the review here become absolutely worthless.
post #123 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
One example of alleged poor workmanship is hardly something we all needed to be warned about.
This is your opinion, and only your opinion. I'm not of the same opinion at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
That's not the point. He started a thread that was negative without giving Ken the courtesy of knowing about a problem.
Again just your opinion. I don't agree that poor QC on a product of this caliber needs to be addressed to the manufacturer before giving an opinion of that product. If the issue were the shorted wire I'd feel differently, because that could be due to factors out of the manufacturers control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
The effect on a persons business by posting bs like the OP did, is negative for the sake of being negative. If he was trying to accomplish some thing other than to hurt Ken then he would have thought better of it before starting the thread. He would have contacted Ken. Maybe the OP was a little sensitive when he decided to complain about the shipping charge and soldering job. Or maybe he was being insensitive.
Again just your opinion, and one I wholeheartedly do not share, and am a bit concerned that a moderator would be posting his opinion as fact.
I personally think that warrior05's history on this forum not only contradicts your post, but I believe your comments border on personal attack. If he doesn't have the right to voice a valid concern about a QC issue with a vendor that relates to the headphone hobby on this site, then this site has no business calling itself a forum.
post #124 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Kang View Post
By censorship I meant a systematic means of restricting the freedom of expression. I, and I'm sure some others may agree, will think twice about posting any comment that may be taken as controversial about a vendor/product knowing the perceived reaction it will cause here. That in itself; the suppression of member expression by such coerce means, is itself a form of CENSORSHIP.
Hmmm...so let me see if I understand....

There is a "systematic means of restricting freedom of expression", eh? How?? Are you privy to some kind of behind-the-scenes maneuvering going on here? Have any posts been deleted? Offending members speaking "truth" to power banned? Thrown anyone in the gulag?

It seems to me that what you want is the "freedom" to pop off in any irresponsible manner in which you choose, without the discomfort of having someone call you out. That's not how life works, and if you choose to call that censorship you've got some pretty naive and wrong-headed notions about what censorship really is.

I'll say this again: what MOST of the people in this thread are clearly tweaked about is the use of this site as a soapbox to air dirty laundry without giving the vendor the courtesy of an opportunity to do something to make things right. That strikes many of us as unfair, and we certainly have the right to say something about it, don't we??

The use by you of the word censorship in this context is not a lot different than the use of nazi in similar arguments - it's intended to simply end all debate about a matter of contention. I mean, is not your invoking the charge of censorship in itself a systematic means for silencing an opposing point of view? By your own standard, is this not ALSO censorship?

No, this is NOT in fact censorship, but rather the opposite - the free expression of ideas...that you apparently don't like. That's life...
post #125 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
So you get the 1 out of 100 cables that had a QC issue (I don't know if there was or wasn't a QC issue with the cable, just using your example). Contact Ken, give him an opportunity to make good. If he does, you get the cable you wanted. If he doesn't you post negative feedback. Just because one cable is bad doesn't mean Ken makes bad cables. It just means one was bad. Doesn't sound like a reason to start a thread.
I didn't say Ken makes bad cables. I said my cable showed poor craftsmanship, yours may be different. The issue is whether or not I believe I need to contact Ken first over a poorly made cable that I paid a premium price for. I don't think I do, if you do that's your opinion.
And if you'll look at the first post you'll see that I didn't start a thread.
post #126 of 211
This thread has been at the top all day. It's getting in the way of the herbivores and carnivores kicking each other in the nuts and the cool video of that kid biting it on the half-pipe.

Can someone move it to the cable section? How much $$$ would it take to get it moved. I need to find an impoverished moderator. Where's Zanth at? Isn't he a grad student? I bet I could get to him.
post #127 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
I'm not particularly happy with the cable on my AKG501. It is quite soft and a simple velcro cable tie cut right through it. Should I be required to contact AKG before posting a review here at Head-Fi that includes a criticism of the stock cable?

I also don't see why the fact that this was only one unit should preclude him from starting a thread to discuss the issue. Discussion of audio products is what this forum is all about. Should any individual who likes his ALO cable be precluded from starting a thread praising it because he has only a single cable? No, of course not. People start such threads here all the time without falling prey to the type of attacks we've seen in this thread. People who have a criticism of a product should have the same opportunity to start a thread with their observations. Then people like me, who are potential customers, can get a balanced view of what this product is about and weigh all of the individual opinions to reach our own decisions. If this forum is limited only to positive reviews, then all of the review here become absolutely worthless.

I'm not alone in my views. I could handle it if I was, but it's nice to see that someone else feels the same.
post #128 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
This is your opinion, and only your opinion. I'm not of the same opinion at all.
I never claimed different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
Again just your opinion. I don't agree that poor QC on a product of this caliber needs to be addressed to the manufacturer before giving an opinion of that product. If the issue were the shorted wire I'd feel differently, because that could be due to factors out of the manufacturers control.
Nothing needs to be done. The question is should it have been done. I feel it should have, you disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
Again just your opinion, and one I wholeheartedly do not share, and am a bit concerned that a moderator would be posting his opinion as fact.
I posted my opinion as fact. I posted my opinion as opinion. I don't think that when I became a mod I lost the ability to post my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
I personally think that warrior05's history on this forum not only contradicts your post, but I believe your comments border on personal attack. If he doesn't have the right to voice a valid concern about a QC issue with a vendor that relates to the headphone hobby on this site, then this site has no business calling itself a forum.
It was a single cable that had a problem according to him. I disagree that it was something that justified a thread like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
The issue is whether or not I believe I need to contact Ken first over a poorly made cable that I paid a premium price for. I don't think I do, if you do that's your opinion.
That is the problem as I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
And if you'll look at the first post you'll see that I didn't start a thread.
I never claimed you did. I was discussing it generally, whether anyone should start a thread over this.
post #129 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by swt61 View Post
If he doesn't have the right to voice a valid concern about a QC issue with a vendor that relates to the headphone hobby on this site, then this site has no business calling itself a forum.
He has every right, as I've pointed out before by observing that no posts have been deleted, no complaining members banned, and so on.

What you are apparently looking for is a form of one-sided free speech, where you are permitted to express an opinion, but nobody is permitted to criticize that opinion. That's not how life works...it is a child's notion of free speech. We are (at least most of us) adults, and we ought to be mature enough to express our opinions, even if we know that someone is going to question those opinions.

But again, I'll remind you that what most folks object to is the lack of opportunity afforded to the vendor to make things right. It strikes most of us as unfair, and is it not also our right to say something about it??
post #130 of 211
it's funny how people on both sides go to extremes when trying to prove their point. when you look at the original post, the op's tone was not completely at all like that. he clearly stated that he was not making a blanket statement regarding ALO, just one experience of his.

yet, these arguments back and forth...lots of people...even sadly the moderators are making points like it was a personal attack on Ken...or the other side claiming this is head-fi promoting censorship.

IMO, I never got any sense of that.

As an aside, reminds of how the iraq war debate raged on...people painting things with extreme arguments just to prove a point. sort of makes healthy debate really hard as this thread seems to prove.

anyways, i'm all for people expressing their individual experiences both negative and positive since it provides a more well rounded and accurate picture of these products instead of the sometimes all-too positive views that tend to get expressed.

if people realize that mistakes happen in the real world and not all products can be made perfectly and realize that some of these bad experiences are just in the minority and weigh that with all the positive reports, then it works and i think it's what makes these forums very helpful, not when it's tilted too extreme one way or the other.

why can't people just take the op's opinion as his opinion and maybe express different opinions if they disagree and take them as such.
post #131 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samgotit View Post
This thread has been at the top all day. It's getting in the way of the herbivores and carnivores kicking each other in the nuts and the cool video of that kid biting it on the half-pipe.

Can someone move it to the cable section? How much $$$ would it take to get it moved. I need to find an impoverished moderator. Where's Zanth at? Isn't he a grad student? I bet I could get to him.
A well timed and needed injection of Samgotit humor.

I've said everything that I wanted to say on the subject, and I don't believe this is going in anything remotely like an informative direction, so I'm finished here.
post #132 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
I posted my opinion as fact. I posted my opinion as opinion. I don't think that when I became a mod I lost the ability to post my opinion.


It was a single cable that had a problem according to him. I disagree that it was something that justified a thread like this.

I somewhat disagree...not anything in regards to your opinion...but as a moderator, I think you do lose a certain freedom to post as you would like to on threads like these. If I were the OP, I would feel like I wasn't treated fairly because moderators, should ideally, moderate and stay out discussions between different readers who are having a contentious discussion. Moderators to me, by virtue of their role, do have a heavier weight to their opinions...

You just can't take off one hat and wear another...it would seem that for members member here, moderators will always wear the moderator hat and your opinion is not just your opinion even though you would like it to be so when you express it...
post #133 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by foo_me View Post
if people realize that mistakes happen in the real world and not all products can be made perfectly and realize that some of these bad experiences are just in the minority and weigh that with all the positive reports, then it works and i think it's what makes these forums very helpful, not when it's tilted too extreme one way or the other.
A good point, and all true...

Oh, and all the more reason to, before posting something unfavorable, give the vendor the courtesy of an opportunity to recitfy the situation. In this instance, the vendor is trashed by the OP and others who have opinions (but apparently no common experience), and it looks to some like he attempted to make amends only when a gun was put to his head.

So why not contact him first and allow him to attempt to fix things? That way, when the OP posts about his "excess shipping" and "poor QC" (and I'll remind you again, nobody's deleting his posts here), he can also detail the manner in which the vendor attempted to make things right. That strikes me as a much more fair-minded approach than we've seen here.
post #134 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by foo_me View Post
I somewhat disagree...not anything in regards to your opinion...but as a moderator, I think you do lose a certain freedom to post as you would like to on threads like these. If I were the OP, I would feel like I wasn't treated fairly because moderators, should ideally, moderate and stay out discussions between different readers who are having a contentious discussion. Moderators to me, by virtue of their role, do have a heavier weight to their opinions...

You just can't take off one hat and wear another...it would seem that for members member here, moderators will always wear the moderator hat and your opinion is not just your opinion even though you would like it to be so when you express it...
Per the site owner, that's not how it works here.

Why ought an unpaid moderator, by virtue of accepting responsibility for helping to run the site, surrender freedoms enjoyed by those who have no such responsibilities? You may not agree with it, but that's how it goes around here.
post #135 of 211
just some more thoughts regarding this...
i don't really care about the OP's opinion regarding ALO just because I am currently not interested in his products right now...but it bothers me that people give him grief over expressing it...and IMO, expressing in a fair way.

people seem to forget that Ken is running a business.
alot of people here want everyone to be friends and get along and that's fine...if it were just hobbyists and DIYers.
But ALO AFAIK is a business selling products and services for profit.
As such, as a customer, I would ask/demand for a certain degree of customer service and quality. If i felt I didn't not receive, I do not think it's wrong to express dissatisfaction...in a fair way...which again I think the OP did.

But frankly, IMO, alot of people treat vendors here not just as vendors but as friends because they speak and maybe socialize with them and take any criticism as personal attacks...when it's not necessarily so...just expression of not being satisfied as a consumer. It seems a little wrong that people write glowing reviews/impressions all the time, yet members get grief when not expressing such rosey views.

just my opinion and not that vendors do...but it seems that Vendors I think can take advantage of forums such as these...
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