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The Point of Diminishing Returns - Page 4

post #46 of 52
7/5/07 at 5:21pm
Goodness... this post is getting real interesting. I see two problem though:

1) You can't quantify sound quality, its just too subjective.
2) Psychology - Everyone wants to reduce their "cognitive dissonance", and make themselves feel better about a purchase. So that experience is validated by playing things for friends, trading gear, haunting Head-fi forums, etc etc. I like knowing I didn't waste a bunch of money, so I come hear and know that I made an investment in something that sounds damn good!

Who cares how much it costs? If it sounds good, it is good.... If it sounds better, it is better. I cant stand posts that try and say that "A sounds XX% better than B", and "B has XX% of the SQ of C". Its just too difficult. If everyone could spend $10,000 on gear, then it would be a mute point. Most folks are looking at the biggest bang for their buck. This site is a great place to get feedback and recommendations from folks who have spent lots of $$$ that the rest of us don't have. Find similar likes (or get together with folks), spend some $$$, and be happy. If you're not happy, sell it and move on. Of course diminishing returns exist for any combination of sources, amps, and HP's, but its unique to the individual.
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post #47 of 52
7/5/07 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayehs View Post
It may be substantial but it probably won't be as substantial from going from ipod bud to say grado sr80's etc. I understand that SQ is subjective and is different for everyone. But you also have to remember that the marginal benefit is calculated based on per unit of input. Just because the difference in sound quality might be substantial, doesn't mean that the marginal benefit will be. When you actual calculate the marginal benefit (SQ/price), chances are that it'll be significantly smaller than the marginal benefit gained from headphones in the $50-$100 range.

For eg. out of 100, you thought sr80 was about 70, sr225 was about 80 and rs1 is 100. SQ difference Sr225 and rs1 is 20 which is significant and more than the difference between sr80 and sr225. Does that mean RS1 has bigger marginal benefit than sr225? No. Because marginal benefit is calculated based on per unit input (per dollar in this case). Sr225 is about $150 and RS1 is about $500.

Marginal benefit of upgrading to sr225 from sr80 = 10/$150 = 0.06667
Marginal benefit of upgrading to rs1 from sr225 = 20/$500 = 0.04.

Even though you noticed much bigger improvement going from sr225 to rs1 than sr80 to sr225, marginal benefit is actually less.
But you've assumed away the issue, and perhaps missed my fundamental point in the process. What if I think the sr80 is a 25, the sr225 is a 30 and the rs1 is 100? In other words, the whole calculus depends on how each individual ranks the sound, and the rankings may vary a great deal from person to person.

Furthermore, as pointed out by mstorie, there's no way to quantify differences in sound quality in this manner. There's no standard or scale for anyone to use that is meaningful.
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post #48 of 52
7/6/07 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-Finthen View Post
^ All good and true to an extent. But then what are these sonidc differences after a moderate level of investment. They are with better tone and timbre of the instruments(if it is a part of the genere choosen and orignially properly mixed and mastered), better instrument seperation and staging, and proper weight and balance of the instruments portrayed adding to the realisim factor. All of this does presuppose it is important to the genere and our own relative sense as to what we are comparing it to. For instance, although these may well all be slight differences, just try to move from a slightly better sounding system to a lesser one and the difference become astoundingly clearer than moving up the chain with the fresh significance of how much was just spent in mind. Then we get into personal values of what matters in the larger scheme of overall life expences and what priorities are which are a personal decision which to some it is a good choice and at the other end of the spectrum it is just as valaid that it is not.

I like reading exactly about these values as its all needed to target what is our own "sweet spot" as to return on a cost/benefit scale, and is therefore useful as a reminder to us all.

But, keep in mind a 15% return on increased audiophile qualitys is money well spent for a great many in the world of higher end audio reproduction gears. And transposes well towards the auto/motorcycle tune up gear etc!
Yes, Hi-Finthen, you are right: strictly speaking, it is simple-minded to ask for the point of diminishing returns without establishing what one's values are. Still, think about it this way: What would your headphones recommendation be to the audiophile on a tight budget, the closest you can get to a silver bullet? (This is how I read the OP.) Here, one can use a simple (not necessarily simple-minded) answer. In my limited experience, the point of diminishing returns, as far as headphones, is the least expensive of my cans: the Beyer DT990-250 (2005 edition). I love my more expensive cans, but this is exactly where I get into some heated arguments with my wallet, where that whole soul-searching thing kicks in. To my ears, a well-amplified DT990-250 is that good. (No bright-sounding amp allowed, however.)

Cheers,
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post #49 of 52
7/6/07 at 4:38pm
The last 5% costs the "most" - usually a small fortune!
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post #50 of 52
7/6/07 at 7:54pm
I think the point of diminishing returns (or "Silver Bullet" if you will) depends on what type of headphone you're looking for:

Best IEM: IM716
Best Clip-On: KSC75
Best Portable Open can: KSC75 with Headband Mod 1.0
Best Portable Closed can: MDR-V6
Best Stay-At-Home Open can: Accura SR-660
Best Stay-At-Home Closed can: MDR-V6

TEAM BUDGET ON A BUCK!!
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post #51 of 52
7/6/07 at 8:00pm
All of those cans sound better with amplification apparently...

Which is why I agree that you should buy the headphones first, because everybody already has a source. Then you buy the amp to open them all up. Then you buy your clean source (line out) considering most people (esp in the future) are going to want their source to be a portable DAP last... then they can get a better price, more storage space, better battery life, etc...
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post #52 of 52
7/6/07 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by daleda@sbcglobal View Post
The last 5% costs the "most" - usually a small fortune!
Exactly! And, when you reach that point where you're finally capable of noticing that the last 5% are not there, you're so far gone that you may actually pay for them!!
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