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Hydrogenaudio don't like us (Head-Fi) very much? - Page 3

post #31 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
But here is what Hydrogen Audio's TOS #8 actually requires:

HA is all about listening. Hydrogen Audio, unlike Head-Fi, just requires that before you make subjective comparisons, you demonstrate through a controlled listening test that you can actually hear a difference.
That's the difference between music lovers/artists and scientists.

Biologists see no one is the same, down to the basic gene sequences.

Artists see no creation is the same, for each brush stroke, and musicians hear differences in each note from string instruments.

Scientists don't hear and don't see. They just read meters and graphs. That's how they believe they're correct and proven.....

post #32 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3x331m View Post
That's the difference between music lovers/artists and scientists.

Biologists see no one is the same, down to the basic gene sequences.

Artists see no creation is the same, for each brush stroke, and musicians hear differences in each note from string instruments.

Scientists don't hear and don't see. They just read meters and graphs. That's how they believe they're correct and proven.....

it's not the scientists at fault. it's the poorly trained engineers that demand measurements but don't really understand what the measurements actually measure, or demand blind tests without understanding the concept of a blind test. most professional scientists i know in the audio scene are far more reasonable than these engineering guys i meet.
post #33 of 89
on good days my music sounds awesome, on bad days it sounds like crap..lol does that make me a head-fier?

is this a start of a audiophile flame war? just warn me so i can start painting my grados with flame retardant paint in blue ofcourse
post #34 of 89
Hey, cool, I wondered when a thread like this was going to start.

I look for info on both forums, artists on one, scientists on the other. It would be nice to have a scientific section on head-fi without scaring away the sponsors.
post #35 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
it's not the scientists at fault. it's the poorly trained engineers that demand measurements but don't really understand what the measurements actually measure, or demand blind tests without understanding the concept of a blind test. most professional scientists i know in the audio scene are far more reasonable than these engineering guys i meet.
... and they think that they're always right....

...Don't get the wrong idea. The scientists those have the common senses are the most successful ones, and I do have very high respect for those who can see both sides of the tracks.
post #36 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
that's the problem with hydrogen audio. they advocate blind testing (which I do as well), but they do not understand how to interpret blind tests.
I disagree, for the reasons stated below. (note: I've rearranged the order of your quotes to facilitate the flow of my response. It's not my intention to change anything that you've said.)

Quote:
it will tell you that the two systems are different, but nothing beyond that.
Exactly right.

Quote:
how the heck is blind testing supposed to support subjective listening, like one system being "warmer" or "clearer" than another?
It isn't supposed to do that, and H.A. does not suggest that it is. The point of H.A.'s TOS #8 is simply to establish that the listener can hear a difference before accepting subjective impressions of that difference. The blind test, by itself, does not purport to allow the characterization of one system as "warmer" or "clearer" or anything else. It simply shows that there is a difference. Once you establish that, you are perfectly welcome to describe that difference in subjective terms.

If you want an example, look at the way that Hydrogen Audio conducts listening tests where they compare codecs. To participate in the listening test, you need to successfully ABX the codecs that you are comparing; once you do that, you rank the codecs. The actual comparison is purely subjective, and the reported results usually include both a subjective ranking (usually on a scale of 1 to 5, if I remember correctly) as well as a space for purely subjective comments about how the codec sounds.
post #37 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3x331m View Post
Scientists don't hear and don't see. They just read meters and graphs. That's how they believe they're correct and proven.....
Did you even read the HA TOS #8 that I quoted? It specifically says that graphs are not the type of proof that Hydrogen Audio requires, and that listening tests are.
post #38 of 89
Febs, thats exactly it, nobody is saying subjective opinions are ignored. Just state the opinion after eliminating the possibility of a placebo effect, eg ABX test.
post #39 of 89
ah thanks for clearing that up, Febs. I suppose the guys at HA have a point, but I still think they are being unnecesarily restrictive, a bit too Nazi for my taste. It's true that placebo often plays a factor, but when someone is listening carefully the role of placebo is overstated IMHO.
post #40 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
ah thanks for clearing that up, Febs. I suppose the guys at HA have a point, but I still think they are being unnecesarily restrictive, a bit too Nazi for my taste. It's true that placebo often plays a factor, but when someone is listening carefully the role of placebo is overstated IMHO.
Couldn't agree more. If I say "I prefer wav over MP3 320" there is always somebody who blurts out "That's placebo"
post #41 of 89
eh..... they're kinda right. i'm happy with my NOS lossless itunes... it's the source that makes things sound good...
post #42 of 89
It's because they don't have national meets.
post #43 of 89
Well in any case, they're quite helpful, especially with making my foobar look good.
post #44 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsjong View Post
It's because they don't have national meets.
... and some don't believe in Vibration....is good.
post #45 of 89
Head-fi should buy Hydrogen Audio, and then merge the forum with all the members. Boy that'd be fun.

PS: Vibration = good ? Never trust chicks with plastic boobs.
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