Cheap stock cables still sound good
May 2, 2007 at 1:13 PM Post #61 of 149
It is absolutely impossible for any human to be anything other than subjective, when engaged in any experiment.

Whoever is doing the listening brings all their baggage with them and is an integral part of the whole experience, to deny this is to deny reality.

There are even some airheads that only buy cables that measure well and actually say that they don't believe or trust ther own ears, when they are then asked who is going to be listening to the music (that is, if they really do listen to music at all) themselves or the measuring instruments - they never come back with an answer - well how can they?

Listening is a wholly subjective experience and TheOnlyOne you are quite wrong that different wire is something that only 'seems' to make a difference in the field of audio, many of those who buy or create different power cords for visual mediums aka DVD/VCR also can see real differences, good or bad in the resulting picture AND this is demonstrable to more than one person - go on say it - auto suggestion.

As to your ludicrous argument, which has been spouted by many before you about cable cost - well I reversed that - I bought commercial cables and then made cables cheaply using mil. spec wire. By your spurious argument, that would mean that I would find them to be crap because they were made for pennies.

There are many who like to boast how much they paid for cables/equipment etc. - it makes them feel good/superior about handing over large amounts of money, as a Scot it would make me feel ill.

By saying that those who make changes are convincing (brainwashing) themselves that there are changes when you are inferring there are none is extremely arrogant and says much more about yourself rather than your theoretical experimentors.

Perhaps you have substandard hearing - have you ever had a professionally conducted hearing test - I have, or maybe you have a very character armoured mentality, once you have reached a conclusion, that's it for ever more.

As I get older I have come to realise that very little in life is certain and that an open mind is a mind that is truly alive, whilst the closed mind is already half dead.
 
May 2, 2007 at 1:45 PM Post #62 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Listening is a wholly subjective experience and TheOnlyOne you are quite wrong that different wire is something that only 'seems' to make a difference in the field of audio, many of those who buy or create different power cords for visual mediums aka DVD/VCR also can see real differences, good or bad in the resulting picture AND this is demonstrable to more than one person - go on say it - auto suggestion.


DVDs and VCRs use frequencies that are way higher than audio, they are many times more affected by capacitance, inductance and dielectric losses in the wire. But these are losses, they are not distortions. I use amateur radio equipment that uses the 420 - 450 MHz band. If cable caused distortions then I would have the FCC pounding on they door for interfering with there radios, we share this band with them. Distortion shows up as harmonics of the output frequency and this would be outside of band I am permitted on. If these harmonics were caused by the wire it would have to be because it was non-linear, metal is not non-linear unless to is very hot. If the dielectric was non-linear once again there would be pounding at the door (Well not really, it would be a letter or two at first).

Also DBT is not subjective because you don't know what is being used or not being used.

TheOnlyOne
 
May 2, 2007 at 1:50 PM Post #63 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Perhaps you have substandard hearing - have you ever had a professionally conducted hearing test - I have, or maybe you have a very character armoured mentality, once you have reached a conclusion, that's it for ever more.


You know, instead of banning discussion of DBT in this forum, perhaps we should ban personal attacks. Maybe then there would be discussion here worth reading.
 
May 2, 2007 at 2:10 PM Post #64 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif
As to your ludicrous argument, which has been spouted by many before you about cable cost - well I reversed that - I bought commercial cables and then made cables cheaply using mil. spec wire. By your spurious argument, that would mean that I would find them to be crap because they were made for pennies.


Please, where have I said anything about cost......
blink.gif


TheOnlyOne
 
May 2, 2007 at 2:38 PM Post #65 of 149
The OnlyOne,
when you are listening in any test who is doing the listening, you, that is all your past, all your prejudices, your experiences - you simply can't divorce yourself from everything that makes you, you. This of course applies to everyone, we are all the same in that respect. To be truly objective, you would have to completely wipe out who you are and that of course is totally impossible - who or what would be doing the listening?

As soon as thought is in operation, it is the past, your past that is doing the listening because thought can only ever operate in the past.Thought is space/time, it can never operate in the present moment ergo, it is impossible to listen 'objectively'. It will always be you who is doing the listening and it does'nt come anymore subjective than that.

Febs,
TheOnlyOne was deriding all those that do find differences in cables he is attacking each and every one of us, that's what I call a scattergun attack, directed at each of us personally.

To ask someone if they have ever had a professional hearing test seems eminently sensible and rational for someone who can detect no difference in cables when so many can.

I presented my arguments based upon actual experiments that I have conducted, so have others. These are the personal opinions that we have found. I like to discuss differences with others who have contrary views to mine based upon their experience, not theories, that surely is the whole purpose of forums like these.

Too many threads end up as some kind of pathetic pseudo intellectual warfare - and what is learned from this - nothing at all - what a waste of time, the most precious commodity of all.
 
May 2, 2007 at 3:03 PM Post #66 of 149
The test is so simple, and attacks no one by name. You either hear a change or not, it sounds better to you or not. You can't be prejudices if you don't know the source. Talking with other people will change the test, knowing what you are testing will change the test. Why is testing audio equipment any different from any other scientific test.

You see no personal attacks by me.

TheOnlyOne
 
May 2, 2007 at 5:34 PM Post #67 of 149
From another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by chroot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hey guys,

I'm relatively new here, and do not have as much experience with hi-fi gear as many of you. However, I do have something most of you probably do not: a Master's of Electrical Engineering from Stanford. I work as an integrated circuit designer (yes, including amplifiers) for one of the largest high-performance analog companies in the world.

I would like to make a few points, some from an electrical engineering perspective, and some simply observations of human behavior.

1) The "difficulty" misconception.

Most audiophiles want to believe that designing and building hi-fi sound equipment is difficult. They are used to seeing very elaborate equipment full of exotic materials and components. Their experience (and the messages targeted to them by the manufacturers of such equipment) leads them to have a very skewed understanding of what's "difficult" in the field of electrical engineering.

To make it clear: shuffling bits across a noisy bus at 10 Gbit/s is a difficult problem. Building a 98% efficient 200 kW microwave amplifier is a difficult problem.

Sending a 2 V peak-to-peak, 20 kHz band-limited signal across a 12-inch piece of shielded wire is not a difficult problem. At all. It's a cookie-cutter problem, solved handily by the basic circuit topologies shown in dozens of electrical-engineering textbooks. You can build an audio line-driver with essentially any THD you want, for example, without having to use your brain at all.

It's hard to build excellent speakers. It's hard to build excellent headphones. It's hard to build excellent codecs. It's easy as pie to build excellent line-drivers that will work well over anything from cryogenically-treated super-engineered science-project cable to RadioShack's cheapest speaker wire.

2) The capacitance misconception.

Many of the people who try to have empirical discussions about cables will bring up figures like capacitance. They mean well, but they are misguided. They are almost universally using a linear no-threshold model without realizing it. A linear no-threshold model is embodied in the concepts "less capacitance always produces equivalently better sound" and "you can never have too little capacitance."

Linear no-threshold modelling has unfortunately become downright mainstream in modern society. Everything from exposure to carcinogens and radiation to climate change is now almost exclusively discussed in the context of a linear no-threshold model by the popular media.

The problem is that a linear no-threshold model is essentially never physically valid. In the context of audiophile gear, many people misunderstand that capacitance is necessary for your amplifier to operate properly. Almost all op-amps, for example, require some load capacitance to remain stable. If you lower the capacitance, the amplifier will begin to distort or, worse, spontaneously oscillate. Op-amps are designed for efficiency over a relatively broad range of acceptable load capacitances, and thus capacitance does not obey a linear no-threshold model. Furthermore, the engineers who built your sound equipment stuck some capacitors on the board specifically to make sure the amplifier always sees enough load capacitance.

Besides -- look at the specifications on your cables. Almost all of them, even the super high-grade cables, will have capacitances in the ballpark of 10-20 pF per foot. The lesson is that you should be more concerned about the length of your cables than the type of your cables, if you worry about capacitance at all. (And you probably shouldn't.)

Besides, if you really want zero-capacitance cables, you can do it with basic matching networks at both ends. All you need is a couple of small, cheap inductors and viola your cable presents a purely real impedance to your amplifier.

And don't forget those chintzy 3.5mm mini-phono plugs! They're terrible from an electrical engineering perspective. They have large capacitance, large contact resistance, etc. If you're really concerned about interconnect, why not use modern connectors like SMA or SMB that have vastly superior electrical characteristics? That'll certainly have a much larger effect on the overall transmission line than simply connecting two mini-phono plugs with a wire as big as a baby's arm.

3) The resistivity misconception.

The second figure everyone brings up is resistivity. Since you're not driving power over your interconnect, resistance should be the least of your concern. If you look at the telegrapher's equations, you'll see that real resistance only contributes to attenuation. In other words, you'll lose some signal amplitude over a length of cable if its resitance is high. Real resistance does not alter the transmitted waveform in any other way; it does not affect waveform shape or spectral content.

Oxygen-free copper and so on provide improvements in resistivity of at most about 2%. This means, well, essentially nothing. It means you'll have to turn the knob on your receiver a couple more microns clockwise if you use normal cables.

4) The size misconception

Many people intuitively believe that larger conductors are better. Some people buy luidcrously large conductors -- large enough to use as mains power cabling for a hospital -- in the hopes that it will improve sound quality.

It's already been discussed here many times, so I won't belabor the point, but there's no point in using an enormous cable to connect integrated circuits. Forget about the pins on the iPod dock. Forget about the 10 micron board traces. Realize that inside the black plastic package of your integrated circuits, the signals are being carried on tiny gold wires thinner than a human hair.

And, I just have to pick on TheMarchingMule a bit:



Anytime someone tries to personify electrons, or make weird analogies between fluid flow or feng shui and electron conduction, be wary: that person doesn't know anything about how signals actually propagate through wires.

5) The measurement misconception.

Anyone who tells you they can hear things that cannot be conclusively shown on a decent-quality oscilloscope is lying to you (and probably to themselves, as well). Measurement equipment is hundreds or thousands of times more sensitive than human senses. It's positively silly for someone to claim that they can hear something that a high-end spectrum analzyer cannot detect.

6) The tone-color misconception.

Audiophiles openly admit that they buy amplifiers and headphones because they like the way they color the sound. People love tube amplifiers, for example, specifically because they are such poor amplifiers, from an electrical engineering perspective. They color the sound quite strongly, changing its spectral content enormously. Yet people enjoy the sound, and pay loads of money for them. On the other hand, the same people will spend hundreds of dollars on cables that they believe to be superior because they do not color their sound.

6) The price misconception.

As has been mentioned (and demonstrated), people have a fascination with price, and tend to think that anything expensive must be good.

Anyone who's ever listened to music before can tell you that a $20 pair of headphones don't sound as good as a $100 pair of headphones (unless they're Bose). It's so easy to tell the difference between headphones that the market economy reliably drives their prices to a reasonable delta -- given equal market exposure, the good ones cost more than the bad ones, almost universally. (Marketing screws this up a bit by affecting market exposure, but I digress.)

On the other hand, almost no one can really tell the difference between cables, even experienced audiophiles. Perhaps a few people really can, but the majority of the market cannot. This means the market cannot reliably set prices, which is why you find cables priced at anything from $1 to $3000.

The stock market works the same way, by the way -- it's hard to make a windfall on large, well-known stocks where everyone has the same information, because everyone pretty much agrees on what the prices should be. When you get down to the small, relatively unknown companies, no one really knows which ones are better, and the prices between them can fluctuate wildly with no real rhyme or reason.

8) What to do?

Now for the warm and fuzzy part.

I personally feel the best hi-fi system is the one you enjoy the most. "Enjoyment" is a subjective term, of course. Personally, I enjoy musical variety more than anything else. I love having (and knowing) a large collection of music, because I enjoy always having the right music for every occassion. I like always being able to get people dancing at parties. I like having people come up to me and say "wow, I love this music, what is it?" I like taking road trips with people, and having them tell me later that the best part of the trip was the music.

Other people like the look of their sound systems. They want lights and meters and fancy looking interconnects. Maybe they want to impress people, or maybe lights and meters are just their thing. To them, it's incredibly important that their system look as good as it sounds. So be it.

Other people simply view cables as the "final touches" on their masterpiece sound system. They may admit that it doesn't really affect the sound perceptibly, but they enjoy the system more because it feels "complete" and finished to them. So be it.

Again, the best hi-fi is the one you enjoy and use the most.

- Warren



 
May 2, 2007 at 5:41 PM Post #68 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by tnmike1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
HO HUMMM. Can you guys take this to PMing each other so others of us can read some interesting stuff about cables?


THANK you! I agree...
 
May 2, 2007 at 5:56 PM Post #69 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif
From another thread:
.
.
.
Sending a 2 V peak-to-peak, 20 kHz band-limited signal across a 12-inch piece of shielded wire is not a difficult problem.
.
.
.



Thanks for "interesting stuff about cables".
 
May 2, 2007 at 6:12 PM Post #70 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif
As he works in studios he will be listening via 'studio monitors' these are nothing like the average transducers that Joe Punter will listen to. Many recording engineers who have many years in recording studios actually have impaired hearing but refuse to accept this.


The point of studio monitors is that they are calibrated to give relatively flat response. That way, the mixer in one studio is hearing the same thing as the guy doing the mastering in another studio. The reason sound is all over the map now is because many studios are mixing to bookshelf speakers because that's what "Joe Punter" uses. The problem with that is that every set of bookshelves sounds different.

I think you'll find that my experience and opinions are pretty similar to the "old timers". It's the high end audio salesmen of the past ten or fifteen years that have introduced all the hoodoo into the mix.

See ya
Steve
 
May 2, 2007 at 6:14 PM Post #71 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif
TheOnlyOne was deriding all those that do find differences in cables he is attacking each and every one of us, that's what I call a scattergun attack, directed at each of us personally.


Saying that cables all sound the same isn't a personal attack.

See ya
Steve
 
May 2, 2007 at 6:17 PM Post #72 of 149
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif
From another thread:


Great post. That one should be a sticky at the top of this forum. (But it never will be.)

See ya
Steve
 
May 2, 2007 at 6:19 PM Post #73 of 149
I've also read that studio monitors give up accuracy (THD) for improved dynamic range. Does anyone know anything about that? I've wanted to know for some time how good the dynamic range is of headphones. Are they better or worse than studio monitors? There isn't much information readily available.
 
May 2, 2007 at 8:31 PM Post #74 of 149
These arguments go on and on forever on every single online forum. The (only) way the folks will understand the truth about this phenomenon is to get them into a situation, in their own homes, with their own equipment with their best source material, a glass of their favorite beverage, in a good mood etc., and arrange it so that they cannot see which cables are in place at any given moment.

I have conducted several experiments of this nature, one of which I took the time to document (http://cdnav.com/cdnav/viewtopic.php?t=164). We used quality equipment – Magneplanar / Roksan / Musical Fidelity, quality source material and took our time. I also got up to some mischief and tricked two of my friends into thinking that dirt-cheap, freebee cables were $400.00 Luscombe Silver RCA cables. In fact, they went so far as to lavish superlatives upon them… :)

The thing is – one has to configure the audition in such a way that none of the listeners have (any) ability to see which cable is in place. I did this by arranging the system so that only the loudspeakers were in the auditioning room, all the rest of the kit was in an adjacent room with the door closed.

If – and this is a massive ‘IF’, folks want to get to the bottom of this argument once and for all – they simply have to replicate efforts such as this one and they will hear for themselves that, in fact, there are no audible differences between properly designed interconnects (which encompasses just about everything these days, including the free stuff).

More power to folks who purchase fancy interconnects if it’s just for looks. Hell, all of us love eye-candy, but when it comes to making stuff up about ‘differences’ and insinuating that ‘poor folks’ are just envious – give me a break! I’m not, by any means poor, and there is no way in hell that I will ever be fooled into popping for Cardas cables – why – because I have learned by real-world evaluations – and so should (everyone).

It completely baffles me why there are hundreds of thousands of ‘audiophiles’ in the world, but only the smallest handful of folks who have the balls to insert themselves into an unsighted evaluation in their own homes! It takes but an afternoon, what’s the holdup?

Finally, with regards to the myth of “it takes time to hear differences”. That is a self-deception of the tallest order! Think about it: if it did indeed take a few days to weeks to ‘hear a difference’ between cables, they how is it that audiophiles – to a member – will pontificate that they can hear a difference as soon as they switch from el-cheapo cables to uber-cables, but not the other way around? How is it possible to hear so called “good to bad”, but not “bad to good”? :) Kinda’ convenient for arguments sake, but doesn’t quite fit into reality…

Andrew D.

www.cdnav.com (no advertising, no sales, no cons, no BS)
 

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