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post #91 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
This thread reminds me of this other one, which is very recent, and which eventually got closed.

Here we also have relatively new members (very low post counts) posting questions on a very argumentative topic that has been heavily discussed already in many other threads. The recurrence of the topic in spite of existing recent threads makes me wonder if these might be the same people using different accounts.
Astute observation...hummmmmm?
post #92 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by 883dave View Post
In your 20 years of being an "audio nut" have you actually tried any after market power cords in your systems?
Not on my own. Never felt the need to. After A/B cables on systems much better than my own I heard no audible difference. I wish it was there then that would mean there would be more things that could be done to improve a system. But I also understood why there was no difference and why I wouldn't hear one.
post #93 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
Not on my own. Never felt the need to. After A/B cables on systems much better than my own I heard no audible difference. I wish it was there then that would mean there would be more things that could be done to improve a system. But I also understood why there was no difference and why I wouldn't hear one.
I think I can rest my case based on the above statement. no further debates are warranted.
post #94 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
your method of quoting is disturbing. As Justice Scalia once said, if you look over the heads of a crowd of people, you can always pick out your friend.
post #95 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
I brought this discussion up with the owner of a local hight end audio store I know.

He has the "golden" ears and rooms full of "revealing" equipment. The only time he has ever noticed any difference with power cables is when the manufacturer includes one that is to small for current demands. That's it.

WOW! An honest audio sales man.

He stills sells the thousand dollar cables to those that think they need it but definitely doesn't push them as making any difference.
My A/V owner heard I have been asking about this topic. He called at home and told me to leave my equipment and bring a Pastrami & chips, he'll supply the diet coke. He will conduct some listening and viewing classes after the store closes. After the class, I am free to take home the cheapest of each line he carries to review in my setup. After determining the maker I like best, I can check out the lineup for material and build differences. He also has some home made cables to try.

His analogy of using the the forum debates to determine product purchases is like having your high school buddies pick your wife. And way too many false products with unproven claims. This is why I will pay his markup (which is usually better than list). He made the quest of cables and power cords for his store. After this trial, I will report to the thread my novice opinion for any noob interested.
post #96 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
Here is a paper on twisted pair and why its better. now 2 cables one with and one without twisting have the same RLC provided their physical dimension and material are the same. Just to give you some idea that there are differences besides RLC of a particular cable. Now magnetic flux and eddy current, skin effect, electron migration would be considered 2ndary effect IMO, and stuff like electron deposition on dielectric, and IMD on crystal boundaries would be tertiary effects IMO.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel1/15/1...isnumber=10367

I think I just like to stress that I know enough to know that I don't know everything, and as an engineer, I am willing to try, experiment and test different ideas and theories. I think you need to keep an open mind as someone whom are working in scientific/engineering field.
The question is how would those effects effect the audio performance of a power supply in regards to it's connecting power cable? And what effect would they have to current at 60hz? Some of those effects are not even a factor at audio frequencies.

But even more importantly how is a high dollar cable at the end of 30ft of Romex going to affect the powersupply?

And last but not least, all the above effects do play a much larger role in computers. Why are special cables not need?

I am actually attempting to have a civil and genuine discussion. I also try to keep an open mind.
post #97 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post
My A/V owner heard I have been asking about this topic. He called at home and told me to leave my equipment and bring a Pastrami & chips, he'll supply the diet coke. He will conduct some listening and viewing classes after the store closes. After the class, I am free to take home the cheapest of each line he carries to review in my setup. After determining the maker I like best, I can check out the lineup for material and build differences. He also has some home made cables to try.

His analogy of using the the forum debates to determine product purchases is like having your high school buddies pick your wife. And way too many false products with unproven claims. This is why I will pay his markup (which is usually better than list). He made the quest of cables and power cords for his store. After this trial, I will report to the thread my novice opinion for any noob interested.
He (store owner) does pretty much the same. They do cables on a try before you buy basis.

I think I might also do some trials to either reconfirm or disprove my current thoughts on power cable.
post #98 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
The question is how would those effects effect the audio performance of a power supply in regards to it's connecting power cable? And what effect would they have to current at 60hz? Some of those effects are not even a factor at audio frequencies.

But even more importantly how is a high dollar cable at the end of 30ft of Romex going to affect the powersupply?

And last but not least, all the above effects do play a much larger role in computers. Why are special cables not need?

I am actually attempting to have a civil and genuine discussion. I also try to keep an open mind.
did you actually read the paper? a twisted pair even at the end of a power line can reduce the flux
post #99 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
Not on my own. Never felt the need to. After A/B cables on systems much better than my own I heard no audible difference. I wish it was there then that would mean there would be more things that could be done to improve a system. But I also understood why there was no difference and why I wouldn't hear one.
Now I am a little confussed as to what you are after?

Are you looking for people who have heard differences to recant?

Are you just here for the debate?
post #100 of 229
And that small change of the magnetic flux on the cable (which is a function of inductance) is going to have what effect on the power supply? Especially when you take into account the effect of the power supplies transformer.
post #101 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
Nobody is wrong. They haven't heard a difference, and that's certainly right. There are different possible reasons, among them that their system isn't revealing enough or their ears aren't trained or sensitive enough, or they are prejudiced since cables can't make a difference anyway. [/COLOR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
Whats wrong? The answer is simple: your system is not revealing enough (a much nicer way to say your system is not good enough to take advantage of the cable).
We could say that the power supply in yours is not good enough that is not able to work those anomalies you need to treat with the one meter of the cable...what is good for the goose is good for the gander....

Quote:
Every component imparts its own sonic distortion to the audio landscape. Whether you can hear is a subjective test. On the other hand, whether you can measure it is an objective test. Granted, not everything can be measured accurately and not everything can be measured economically. For the most part, you can rely on some basic solid cable engineering to weed out the lessor quality. e.g. vacuum is the best dielectric, single extruded copper has better electron uniformity, shorter is better than longer, colder is better than warmer, etc.
Non of those have proved to be the answer, cables with similar dielectrics, and similar cooper are claimed to sound different by the beleivers on tests....(well actually the same exact have sound different ot them according to some DBT)

Quote:
It is important to make a clarification. You would probably be better off upgrading your power cable, power source, instead of putting more money into IC. The answer is very simple: clean power effects every component in how they make the sound. IC, on the other hand, serves only as a conductor to transmit the signal from one box to another.
At least we agree on that the quality of the power supply is important, but not on the other topics...

Quote:
I can safely make the following statement: I know enough to know that I don't know everything there is to know about the effects of cable on signal transmission. Therefore, I keep an open mind and I test everything. Before you start poking holes at "I know enough", keep in mind I did not waste 4 years of my life in the lab at Ann Arbor, nor did I waste 2 years of my life designing circuits for certain CPU maker (not those 2, well not exactly anyway).
Nobody knows for sure, and that is why it needs to be proved...Now if you do not have any evidence of those changes that a power cord can do, or can not prove them, sorry to tell you that, but regarding that particualr point of the power cord voodoo science, yes you have wasted your time there...



All I can tell you for sure, is that the component that have made the most noticeable change in my system, is the heapdhones...period...change the tranducer if you are not satisfied with the sound is all I can tell you, and if you do, just stop and enjoy the music...and be happy my friend...audiophilia is a decease, and contagious....
post #102 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
your method of quoting is disturbing.
Disturbing?! Ha! All I did was to juxtapose two of your sentences. If that "disturbs" you, then you should reconsider what you write.

Edit: Let me re-phrase, because it is not my intention to add fuel to the fire. If you have some knowledge or expertise that can add to the discussion, why not share that knowledge rather than merely attacking someone else's qualifications? It appears to me that you have made contradictory statements in this thread. On one hand, you acknowledge that there is no literature on the secondary and tertiary effects as they relate to the audio range. You've also written that conventional EE doesn't go beyond RLC. Finally, you've written that first-hand experience is necessary to understand the point about cables. My interpretation of this last point is (and forgive my paraphrasing and please feel free to correct me if I have missed your point) that listening can teach you things that are currently not explicable by conventional engineering principles. Yet at the same time, you claim that someone needs to have a background in EE or related disciplines in order to understand the issues. I'm having difficulty reconciling these various statements.
post #103 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
This thread reminds me of this other one, which is very recent, and which eventually got closed.

Here we also have relatively new members (very low post counts) posting questions on a very argumentative topic that has been heavily discussed already in many other threads. The recurrence of the topic in spite of existing recent threads makes me wonder if these might be the same people using different accounts.
I think that this will do as well, specially on this very controversial topic that there is no way of an agreement, same as analog versus digital, and tubes versus solid state, those thread always ended closed, why? Simply the believers in one field are not able to provide while the believers of the other ask for, and then the debate began and get hot....and later on...well that is history...On those popics is better to do a search, find info in different sources, audiophile and technical, and get your own conclusions...and spend wisely after....

IMO is like $1500.00 that will go to a power cable, should be invested into a better heapdhone or a better source, or a better amp, (or to support better your kids) that will give you a far better enjoyment instead...but that is just my opinion...
post #104 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
Disturbing?! Ha! All I did was to juxtapose two of your sentences. If that "disturbs" you, then you should reconsider what you write.

Edit: Let me re-phrase, because it is not my intention to add fuel to the fire. If you have some knowledge or expertise that can add to the discussion, why not share that knowledge rather than merely attacking someone else's qualifications? It appears to me that you have made contradictory statements in this thread. On one hand, you acknowledge that there is no literature on the secondary and tertiary effects as they relate to the audio range. You've also written that conventional EE doesn't go beyond RLC. Finally, you've written that first-hand experience is necessary to understand the point about cables. My interpretation of this last point is (and forgive my paraphrasing and please feel free to correct me if I have missed your point) that listening can teach you things that are currently not explicable by conventional engineering principles. Yet at the same time, you claim that someone needs to have a background in EE or related disciplines in order to understand the issues. I'm having difficulty reconciling these various statements.
I think you missed my point: that is listening will teach you that there is a difference. Just because no one bothered to measure it doesn't mean that its not measurable. Trust me the difference between cable is the last thing you will see in an ieee paper...not to disrespect anyone but audio is a pretty tiny piece of pie in the whole EE industry and cable is a infinitesimally small portion of that tiny piece. I don't know anyone whom would commit to do such research (who would fund it? the cable industry? LOL).

All we can rely on are basically some parameters that could effect the prorogation in the audio frequency or at 60hz AC. So back to my point: that is, a person without EE or equivalent knowledge would not realize that there are other parameters besides RLC that could effect the sound. While I am trying to argue certain parameters could effect the sound, I am keeping on getting rebuttals asking how they effect the sound, which was not my point.
post #105 of 229
So your point is that you know there is a difference in sound power cables provide and you think those differences might be caused be other cable parameters other than RLC?

Isn't magnetic flux and eddy currents a function of the cables inductance? For skin effect to be a factor would the frequency need to be much higher than the audio band? And if the cable is the currect size for the current flowing through it electron migration isn't a factor.
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