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post #61 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
Whats wrong? The answer is simple: your system is not revealing enough (a much nicer way to say your system is not good enough to take advantage of the cable).
I brought this discussion up with the owner of a local hight end audio store I know.

He has the "golden" ears and rooms full of "revealing" equipment. The only time he has ever noticed any difference with power cables is when the manufacturer includes one that is to small for current demands. That's it.

WOW! An honest audio sales man.

He stills sells the thousand dollar cables to those that think they need it but definitely doesn't push them as making any difference.

How can the basic laws of science as we know it seem to work and apply to every piece of electronics we own except for audio gear?

Does that chip maker cryo treat their CPUs and then computer control the warming process so there is less resistance?
post #62 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleestack View Post
Great. But that's not my experience. I just don't think there is any magic to transparency when it comes to cables.
There may be no magic, but there are different levels of transparency (as discribed by yourself, just with a different bias).


Quote:
Why would you ever recommend not level matching? It would make sense to say that it is usually not necessary when comparing cables of the same type, but it can certainly do no harm. If significant level changes are found it would give someone a reason to look further into the construction of a particular cable. Furthermore, if someone is comparing balanced to single ended, optical to SPDIF, etc., it is usually necessary.
Yes, level matching can do harm when there's in fact no level differences to be equalized. Of course we were talking of cables, right? We weren't comparing apples to oranges. Nevertheless, even Toslink or S/PDIF doesn't matter since digital level is independent of the signal-transfer medium. The only case of the above where level matching is mandatory is the comparison of balanced and unbalanced amps -- but there the level differences aren't caused by the cables, but by the amps.
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post #63 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller View Post
AFAIK, in the US we have a ground cable as well connected to the box, and ground, that is not connected to the neutral, both cable return and live are routed to the pole outside the house....if neutral is conected to the ground you have a fail indication in all power conditioners and measuring devices I know off...
Two hot lines of 120v 180deg out of phase come from the transformer at the pole along with a neutral return. The neutral return is grounded at the pole and the house. All neutral and ground wires go to the same terminal that is grounded at the house. Open your fuse box end see for yourself.
post #64 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
Yes, level matching can do harm when there's in fact no level differences to be equalized. Of course we were talking of cables, right? We weren't comparing apples to oranges. Nevertheless, even Toslink or S/PDIF doesn't matter since digital level is independent of the signal-transfer medium. The only case of the above where level matching is mandatory is the comparison of balanced and unbalanced amps -- but there the level differences aren't caused by the cables, but by the amps.
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I think Sleestack was addressing the fact that if levels are not exactly the same when auditioning two sets of cables there will be a difference in perceived sound quality based purely on the SPL difference. The same trick used by many unscrupulous speak and cable sales men.
post #65 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
Yes, level matching can do harm when there's in fact no level differences to be equalized. Of course we were talking of cables, right? We weren't comparing apples to oranges. Nevertheless, even Toslink or S/PDIF doesn't matter since digital level is independent of the signal-transfer medium. The only case of the above where level matching is mandatory is the comparison of balanced and unbalanced amps -- but there the level differences aren't caused by the cables, but by the amps.
.
If there is no level difference you simply wouldn't adjust levels. I don't see how going through the level matching process can do any harm. Furthermore, if you believe that different cables can sound different, why not go through the process and make sure one cable isn't actually affecting levels. If someone says a cable produces more bass, wouldn't one expect that the bass response would measure differently? How can something sound very different and not have differences in levels at various frequencies?

You do agree that level matching when comparing sources (and not just amps) is necessary?
post #66 of 229
Christ naamanf if you learned all that from Wikipedia I tip my hat to you. I took an EE crashcourse encompassing much of what you've been talking about and even with a tutor I barely absorbed that much. EE is electrical engineering by the way.
post #67 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmtn4aj View Post
Christ naamanf if you learned all that from Wikipedia I tip my hat to you. I took an EE crashcourse encompassing much of what you've been talking about and even with a tutor I barely absorbed that much. EE is electrical engineering by the way.
That's was a bit of a joke to go along with the Kebler theory of cables
post #68 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
I brought this discussion up with the owner of a local hight end audio store I know.

He has the "golden" ears and rooms full of "revealing" equipment. The only time he has ever noticed any difference with power cables is when the manufacturer includes one that is to small for current demands. That's it.

WOW! An honest audio sales man.

He stills sells the thousand dollar cables to those that think they need it but definitely doesn't push them as making any difference.

How can the basic laws of science as we know it seem to work and apply to every piece of electronics we own except for audio gear?

Does that chip maker cryo treat their CPUs and then computer control the warming process so there is less resistance?
actually chips are usually baked before being packaged, that's done to IIRC cure certain polymer and form consistent doping in the depletion region. Its been soo long since I learned this stuff, I only know the basics of processor manufacturing. computing center, on the other hand, are designed to run the processor as cold as possible, for many benefits including reduced resistance and reduce chance of electron migration which would create holes in the conductor.

If you are not an EE I don't expect you to know any of this stuff, but please check your facts before you post.
post #69 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
I brought this discussion up with the owner of a local hight end audio store I know.

He has the "golden" ears and rooms full of "revealing" equipment. The only time he has ever noticed any difference with power cables is when the manufacturer includes one that is to small for current demands. That's it.
How can you hear the music when the ears are full of gold? It's the same as when you try to run marathon with the mouth full of grillz and gold chains hanging around your neck.
post #70 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Why don't all cars come with the best possible tires? Why aren't all TV broadcasts in HD? Manufacturers and vendors build and market their products to meet particular price points, market segments, etc., and to maximize profit. That means that most products are not designed to provide the best performance possible. Someone with a marketing degree or background could probably explain it even better, but there are probably hundreds or thousands of examples of products that could be improved with some sort of aftermarket modification, yet the manufacturer or vendor does not inlcude it because limited number of customers who are interested in that level of performance is not their main market, or it would otherwise not be profitable.
Manufacturers of cars realized the markups on "tweaked" editions long ago. Shelby, AMG, Dinan, SRT, SS.... do have the optimal components. And there are still better theoretical tweaks, but the cost of benefit is too expensive as determined by the designer. These are the reference standards of the maker's technology. Not their standard (mass) target. This is what I view as the best the factory design can provide. The end product can be put to the test before purchase to see what the upgrade provides.

There are industries that have need of cable and power technology. Medical is one of them. I look at the materials and cables used during installations of hi ticket surgical suites. This in areas where color accuracy and 3-D detail is critical for laser surgery and focusing hi energy radiation. Video surgery suites, MRI, Linear Accel. etc, and they use pretty standard ICs and power cable. But then some systems have tens of thousands in power supplies and shielded environments in which to operate. But internal components are still plastic coated ribbon cable, CAT-5 cable, BNC connectors.

I am sure there is tangable value with their products but how do you determine its performance? We aren't all stereo stores that can audition product by vendors. I will listen to my AV dealer. And they do support the majority of whats discussed here. They have been able to audition identical system setups with different target cables. He showed me some tech. specs on some cables $500. There are a couple of impedance, capacitance, resistance numbers. Nothing to say if more or less of any of the measured numbers was an improvement or not.

Scientifically, I have no doubt the theories provide improvements. Shunyata signal cables look very well thought out. The trouble is explainations get into design. Once everyone got the idea, they can't make the margins. Protect the cash cow. I guess I would too, if I had a product people would spend this kind of money on. Don't take this questioning personal. I wouldn't be here participating in this discussion if I weren't considering it. I want to be sold on the purchase. What sold you?

Again, my investment intent is determined on proven performance. I can see ICs and more treatment of power as good to performance. I don't understand how to determine the performance of cables and power cords.

PS- a hobbyist should not have to have an EE to prudently purchase a product.
post #71 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleestack View Post
If there is no level difference you simply wouldn't adjust levels. I don't see how going through the level matching process can do any harm. Furthermore, if you believe that different cables can sound different, why not go through the process and make sure one cable isn't actually affecting levels. If someone says a cable produces more bass, wouldn't one expect that the bass response would measure differently? How can something sound very different and not have differences in levels at various frequencies?
Usual cables have indeed identical frequency responses, roughly spoken. The perceived sonic differences don't reflect themselves in measurements. There are rare exceptions (extreme electrical values, integrated EQ components), but they don't count.

If you like level matching with cables, more power to you. I just haven't experienced level differences among them (let's talk of interconnects or headphone cables, as opposed to ultra-long speaker cables where small differences are possible indeed!), so can't see the need. Actually I was basically reacting to your disqualification of people who supposedly aren't aware of level differences among cables.

Quote:
You do agree that level matching when comparing sources (and not just amps) is necessary?
I do.

Sorry for the annoyance!
.
post #72 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post
I want to be sold on the purchase. What sold you?
1 week audition in my own system and feel the cables make a profound difference, from barely listenable to truly magical.
post #73 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
If you are not an EE I don't expect you to know any of this stuff, but please check your facts before you post.
You really come off high and mighty. My facts? I think they have all been correct and directly related to the topic at hand. You still haven't been able to explain any factor that might cause a power cable to have any audible effects on a component.

I figured you would get my point about cryo treating CPUs. The theory behind cyro treating cable is that the molecules get closer together and stay closer even after being warmed to room temperature. And this treatment supposedly minutely reduces the cable resistance to the point an audible difference can be heard. If this was truly the case I would think that CPU manufacturers would doing this to allow CPUs to run more efficiently. It was a serious question.
post #74 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
That's was a bit of a joke to go along with the Kebler theory of cables
And I thought I was in the presence of the worlds most efficient information sponge
post #75 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmtn4aj View Post
And I thought I was in the presence of the worlds most efficient information sponge
No, but you would be blown away about what I know about the reproductive cycle of sea sponges from watching Discovery HD
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