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post #31 of 229
There are forces for which are not yet accounted for....



Metaphysics!


This has been an announcement from hYdrociTy Post Investments L.L.C.
post #32 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
My bad (tucks tail between legs).
Bad dog!!!!!!

Please, continue this discussion. I am not an EE but can understand an explaination.

There are people who would be willing to make an investment in a product that has confirmed results. You read about every upgrade improving the bass and dynamics by magnitudes of a reviewer's scale. If a reviewer does not notice a detectable improvement, they get the "lack of synergy" or "component upgrade" response. Or the best, your not sophisticated enough to determine the difference so be happy and run far away.

If all this improves the sound, wouldn't the designer use these upgrades to improve their product against their competition? If the super deluxe, El Grande, Uber version would bring more money, wouldn't they provide it? If the majority of the wiring is copper, how does changing a small section "improve" sound? Wouldn't the money spent having a single run of wire from breaker to recepticle be cheaper and make a better improvement?

I don't mean this to be accusatory. Just an explaination. Keep in mind, the vets here have beat this to death, us noobs are catching up so please, review.
post #33 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post
. If all this improves the sound, wouldn't the designer use these upgrades to improve their product against their competition? If the super deluxe, El Grande, Uber version would bring more money, wouldn't they provide it? If the majority of the wiring is copper, how does changing a small section "improve" sound? Wouldn't the money spent having a single run of wire from breaker to recepticle be cheaper and make a better improvement?
Some reputable hight end manufactures say that the supplied cable is as good as it gets because it is the right size for the components current demand and they know they build a quality power supply.

It would make sense that if using a high end cable benefited the system then doing a direct connection would be beneficial. Not to mention Romex is a lot cheaper. Or for that matter just use the same Romex as the rest of the house wiring for the cable.
post #34 of 229

JENA LABS>>>>>>>>>>

Jena Labs cables are great .......I have several pair connecting my Stax and K1000, and they are good stuff, albeit expensive.

www.jenalabs.com
post #35 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller View Post
Here we go again!!!!



AC, same as DC, flows in closed circuits, to say they are the first or the last 3 feet is absurd, they are not the first not the last, they are exactly the center 3 feet of the whole power system, you have miles of bare cooper before, and another miles of same bare cooper after, electricity came by one conductor, pass through your amp, and keep on going through the other conductor to the same place it came from.
Not exactly the case. The return or neutral side actually goes to earth ground. So half of that circuit is the earth it self.
post #36 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick82 View Post
I have owned Outlaw PCA and Van den Hul D 102 mkIII, the latter costs about 4 times more. The difference between them was MUCH smaller than Van den Hul vs Nordost Valhalla.
I concur with patrick that going from nordost top of theline was bigger difference then any other cable thus far and i owned quite a couple of expensive interlinks. I would say compared to the last other one i owned, i would miss about half the information that i get now. Especially body, speed and musicallity are unmatched. I think others can match in detail but not all aspects of the nordost reference line of cables. especially neutrality is unmatched, you really hear what the components do in your system.

The difference between the nordost line itself is smaller and the higher you go, the more you get in detail, body and musicallity. Especially the body of voices and instruments are better in the reference series.

Weather they are worth the money or not, i leave that entirely to you. For me they brought a big change and i think they are worth the money!

I got them second hand though, so more bang for the bucks.
post #37 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stax-i-nox View Post
Jena Labs cables are great .......I have several pair connecting my Stax and K1000, and they are good stuff, albeit expensive.
Power or IC/headphone cable?

IC/headphone cable would have a more profound impact on the signal characteristics (sound). I can accept these cables focusing energy by RLC to impact certain parts of the signal. I don't understand why these cables aren't on the maker's product. Even as a deluxe version. Maybe we put too much trust in the maker to provide the best possible product. I think this is part of what brings skepticism.

I am waiting for the alignment of particular celestial bodies to move on some of Ken's cables. I use his ipod silk dock. Would like to try some ICs but have other areas needing investment (other hps & DAC in particular) first.
post #38 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
Believe it or not, the rules of this "Cables" forum actually prohibit discussing double-blind tests. Hence the "DBT-free forum" designation.
My apologies, I should have read the forum rules more closely. Lively discussion though!
post #39 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post
If all this improves the sound, wouldn't the designer use these upgrades to improve their product against their competition? If the super deluxe, El Grande, Uber version would bring more money, wouldn't they provide it?
Why don't all cars come with the best possible tires? Why aren't all TV broadcasts in HD? Manufacturers and vendors build and market their products to meet particular price points, market segments, etc., and to maximize profit. That means that most products are not designed to provide the best performance possible. Someone with a marketing degree or background could probably explain it even better, but there are probably hundreds or thousands of examples of products that could be improved with some sort of aftermarket modification, yet the manufacturer or vendor does not inlcude it because limited number of customers who are interested in that level of performance is not their main market, or it would otherwise not be profitable.
post #40 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Why don't all cars come with the best possible tires? Why aren't all TV broadcasts in HD? Manufacturers and vendors build and market their products to meet particular price points, market segments, etc., and to maximize profit. That means that most products are not designed to provide the best performance possible. Someone with a marketing degree or background could probably explain it even better, but there are probably hundreds or thousands of examples of products that could be improved with some sort of aftermarket modification, yet the manufacturer or vendor does not inlcude it because limited number of customers who are interested in that level of performance is not their main market, or it would otherwise not be profitable.
Alright, I've taken some marketing classes in connection with an accounting degree. I don't agree with your analogy.

There's a ton of stuff on the market that's just a barely tarted up version of the basic example. Consider another one of my hobbies: fountain pens. You can usually buy a basic version in a plastic/resin housing with an excellent feed, nib and ink storage system. Or you can buy the limited edition, say Abraham Lincoln Commerative Pen, made of 925 sterling with rubies and sapphires set into the body. One is $300, the other is $4,500. Both write the same. Or with cars. You know a $30k car doesn't cost all that much more to build than a $15k car. Do they really spend $15k more in materials? No. Most of the cost is in the overhead, stuff like the factory, tooling, labor, pensions, etc. You get the idea.

And it's no different with cables. Call in an order to China, have them braid it in a funny way, tart up the sheathing, and use cast silver (or whatever) connectors at the end. Then you mark it up 20,000% and brand it as "luxury" or "audiophile." That's where you really make the margin. If you look at the bare materials of a Nordost Valhalla, objectively, there's no way the sum of the parts adds up to cost. If you think the rest is tied up in R&D, you're wrong. As we've seen from the endless DBT, etc. testing that's been done, no one really knows how cables work.

If you want to throw around terms like "skin effect," etc., that's disingenuous. Sure, skin effect is real. It's demonstrable in the lab. So are a lot of other things. The disingenuous part is when there's no causal link between the described effect and what the end result is. This is a logical fallacy, a non-sequitur. It's just like arguing that water causes cancer. After all, 100% of people with cancer drank a glass of water at one time. However, it just does not follow that water causes cancer without empirical evidence.

So when you see the cable manufacturers throwing out all sorts of electronic exotica, stop and ask yourself how the described effect affects the cable. Further, do you see any results of testing? Of course not.

If there was a way to adequately test the cables, the manufacturers would do so. They are not naive. They know people call their products snake oil. So why not prove the nay-sayers wrong? Why don't they do that? Why don't they nail down and prove their products excellent? Why do they only describe their products in vague terms, just barely skirting the issue of false advertising? Also, why don't they want to prove their products superior to the competition? Pick up any car magazine and you'll get tons of copy about the differences between models. But not with cables. They don't do it because they can't.
post #41 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
I hope thats a joke. You could also think it's the middle three feet but that doesn't change the fact that it is the last three feet.
This reminds me of a post i saw on head-fi about a year ago. Some guy drew an ms paint diagram of an electrical power plant and then a long windy line going from the electrical wires to a lone house 1000 miles away. It was hilarious, i tried to find it again but no luck.

who knows, maybe ill recreate it
post #42 of 229
Personally, I have no idea whether a $1000 RCA sounds better than a $10 one, but I've spent enough £££ on my system to want to eliminate any *reasonable* possible detriments to the sq. In my case, that means I tend to spend about $100 on interconnects. That price point, for me, gives me enough of a fluffy feeling that I'm doing my bit in support of the rest of my system, but also doesn't go beyond what is easily affordable with my available funds. Placebo? Quite possibly, but I'd rather spend $100 & be able to relax & enjoy the music, rather than thinking "I wonder if I could get better sound with more expensive cables". That feeling is worth $100 for me. Maybe for some people who've spent 10x my system cost, it's worth $1000.

Ah well. This question has been discussed for yeeears on usenet & elsewhere, and it'll go on forever I am sure!
post #43 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
I hope thats a joke. You could also think it's the middle three feet but that doesn't change the fact that it is the last three feet.
I heard a huge difference with different thicknesses and lengths of the cable plugged into the wall. The cable needs to match the thickness of the apartment wiring. If it's a different size it needs to be as short as possible so it doesn't do as much damage to the sound.
post #44 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
So when you see the cable manufacturers throwing out all sorts of electronic exotica, stop and ask yourself how the described effect affects the cable. Further, do you see any results of testing? Of course not.

If there was a way to adequately test the cables, the manufacturers would do so. They are not naive. They know people call their products snake oil. So why not prove the nay-sayers wrong? Why don't they do that? Why don't they nail down and prove their products excellent? Why do they only describe their products in vague terms, just barely skirting the issue of false advertising? Also, why don't they want to prove their products superior to the competition? Pick up any car magazine and you'll get tons of copy about the differences between models. But not with cables. They don't do it because they can't.
Well that also means that tube equipment or vinyl would not need to be listened to since they don't "measure" as well as some other technology. That is just not the case however.
post #45 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
So why not prove the nay-sayers wrong?
Why would they care about someone who isn’t going to buy their products anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
Why don't they nail down and prove their products excellent?
If they are still in business someone must think their products are excellent, and that’s probably proof enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
Why do they only describe their products in vague terms, just barely skirting the issue of false advertising?
Hey, if you don’t understand what they are saying that doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post
Also, why don't they want to prove their products superior to the competition?
There is no proof of superiority when it comes to subjectivity, and synergy, and who cares about proof when their reputation is causing everyone to buy their products.
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