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HIGH END CABLES - The truth revealed! (personal opinion only) - Page 15  

post #211 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick82 View Post
With my power cords and interconnects I compared 78 microns silver plating against 60 microns with a wire of the same thickness. The detail was about the same, but the one with the thinner silver plating sounded flatter with less dynamics.

60 microns sounded more neutral but the detail wasn't in my face, everything sounded the same and I had to focus on the music more.

With 78 microns the detail was emphasized and everything sounded more distinct. The background appears blacker than it should be, it seems to remove some detail which makes the background appear blacker, but it emphasizes the detail which boosts it up to the same level as with 60 microns, it sounds both blacker and whiter which gives the illusion of greater dynamics. The edginess makes each sound sound more distinct. It's a great match for mp3 because it compensates for the smearing. It's also best for trance albums because it gives faster transients with more blackness in between each transient!



When I modified my power cords thinner it sounded thinner and brighter (brightness was masking the detail). At first I thought it was worse but later after I had tweaked my system more it sounded too dark and heavy, so I tried the modification again and it worked, I got loads of detail! Thinner cable is more revealing. The body was reduced but ERS Paper boosted the body back up. ERS Paper removed most of the brightness which revealed low-level transients I never heard before.

In other words, all i experienced with my experiments with cables concur with what you experienced.
post #212 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post
I was told to tap my foot to the rhythm. The timing of the instruments were skewed with the wrong cables. The recordings were hard to listen to as each instrument's timing was slightly off.
Do you by any chance have a minidisc, or an iriver H120 or any other type of portable recorder? I would love if you could go back to that store and record clips of those songs with the different cables that you tried. It would be very, very interesting to take those recorded clips, put them into a digital audio editor, and observe exactly how much the timing changed.
post #213 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by naamanf View Post
Really? Why?

If they measured the same the signal flowing through them would be the same. If the signal is the same there is no way they could sound different. That's the only fact to it.

Current doesn't measure frequency loss. silver has simply more extension in the upper and lower regions and hass less frequency loss in those regions, so at the end, you'll end up with a more detailed sound, even they measure the same current wise. There IS no way that a cable will measure the same in all aspects!
post #214 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Camper View Post
Thank you good folks for making me aware of the possibilities. And damn you head-fi
Well, at least you're a happy camper!
post #215 of 229

the Cable Cult lives on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
Fundamental Understanding of the Transmission line

Metallic bond and its effect on signal propagation
The propagation of signal through an element is directly affect by the atomic makeup of that element. Atoms are made up of the nucleolus and a cloud of electrons. The cloud of electrons are usually represented by energy levels, where the electrons with the highest energies hang out in the outer layer while the weaker ones are closer to the core. Valance electron is the electron that hangs in the outer most rim of the electron cloud. In order to conduct current, which is the transfer of energy from one electron to another, or you can call it drift current, the valance electron must be able to move around. Metallic bound, unlike covalent or ionic bound, do not restrict the movement of their valance electrons. Although semiconductors are the exception with covalent bound (that's another topic all together).

So why is one metal a better conductor than the other? The simple answer is the more levels of energy a given metal has, the better it conducts electricity. The easier and less restrictive the movement of the electron the better it conduct electricity. One of the most important reasons is that when valance electrons are further from the core, there is less positive force pulling on it and since the valance electrons are usually the stronger ones that jumped from the level below, it has enough energy to 'swim' around the cloud. When an electric field is applied to the element, the energy is transferred from one electron to another and from one atom to another down the chain. Ag is a larger atom than Cu, but both have 2 valance, so they are pretty good conductors, with Ag being the better of the 2. Al, on the other hand, is pretty bad. It has 3 valance electrons and the atom is small. So the electric energy is freely passed in Ag and Cu, but is no so in Al.

In theory, the speed of propagation is c (speed of light, 3x10^8m/s), but there is loss in energy when one electron hand over the energy to another electron and to another electron. Thus, the propagation delay is material dependent. Cu has a theoretical propagation of 66.667%c or (2x10^8m/s). This, of course, does not count any boundary electron jump between bonding materials (solder).

So what is phase delay? Phase delay is a shift of the waveform in the time domain.

Voltage drop across transmission line
To calculate voltage drop across a transmission line, the propagation delay and the frequency which the signal is traveling at is important.

V1 = V0 cos(w(t-l/c)) where w= 2pif. And c is the speed which the energy travels. and l is the length of the cable

The determining factor in voltage drop is wl/c. By comparing theoretical c to the c of the copper, the power loss is measurable. One also need to taken into account the dispersive effects of the material, which for cu, I am not sure what that is. Dispersive effects are generally thought as different frequency propagate at different speed, so not only do you have phase delay of the superposed waveform, there is a phase delay in different frequency components as well!

How to properly calculate RLGC in Coaxial Cable

The Coaxial Cables are constructed with two coaxial conductors separated by dielectrics (of course conventional construction includes an outer layer of shielding).

R = (Rs/(2pi))(1/a+1/b) where a=2r(inner) and b=2r(outer), and Rs= sqrt(pi(f)(uc)(qc)) where uc = magnetic permeability and qc = electric conductivity (sorry no roman letters

As you can see, the resistance is a function of frequency and R is independent of V1 where V1 is the voltage drop due to propagation and again R is not dependent on phase delay and dispersion effects. Also notice the math does not involve any effect of the imperfect dielectric and electron deposition.

L = u/(2pi) x ln(b/a) Again no baring on phase delay

G = (2pi*q)/(ln(b/a))

C = (2pi(e))/ln(b/a)

Notice none of the RLGC is responsible for power loss, phase delay and dispersion effects and R is a function of frequency.

Now if you look the transmission line equation

-dV/dz = (R+jwl)I(z) and -dI(z)/dz = (G+jwC)V(z)

Now if differentiate both sides, you will arrive with (y) or complex propagation constant, which is y=alpha + jbeta

Alpha = Re(sqrt((R+jwL)(G+jwC))
Beta = Re(sqft((R+jwl)(G+jwC))

So basically, after doing all the math, the traditional RLC measurements are not only inaccurate, its down right faulty as RLC is a function of frequency at which the wave travels, and is dependent on the electrical permittivity, magnetic permittivity, and electrical conductivity of the individual material. This however does not even consider the power loss or dispersive effects.

I hope the above analysis answers some questions regarding why a manufacturer may want to optimize multiple areas of the cable to give it a lower propagation delay, optimize RLGC with different material and also optimize RLGC with the use of novel geometries. Of course you can ignore this entire discussion and just use your ear.
Okay, this has an effect at >1Mhz. What bearing does this have at 20 to 20khz?
post #216 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFerrier View Post
Okay, this has an effect at >1Mhz. What bearing does this have at 20 to 20khz?

Simple, harmonics extend way above 20khz...a 15 or 16khz extends to 30-32khz and contains information in that region as well. If you cut off at 20khz, wich cheap cables do, then you don't have the info of the extreem highs wich top end cables have and they give you more extreem high info! This why some people like records and record players better then cd players, no limitation in the high region. records extend way above 20khz.

If your cables can transport frequencies that only go from 20hz to 20khz, compared to a high end cable that can transport frequencies from 10hz to 40khz, you have simply more info in the lower region and the extreem highs. This is exactly what people report!
Same effect as going from cd to sacd, wich extends way beyond 20khz and IS much more detailed then any cd. Theoretically sacd can go up to 100khz. No loss in the high region = more detailed sound, better signal/noise ratio etc.

And there is quite clear a difference in cables concerning frequency responce, since we all know that compter cables etc. use extended frequencies for improved information transportation! For a usb 1.1 and usb 2.0 high speed you need different cables since usb 2.0 needs a greater frequency in the cable to be able to transport the bigger data troughput.

same difference as in high end versus cheap, better extension is the frequencies = more info.
post #217 of 229
So you think cables have zero influence....

If this is your belief, explain to us why different anolog pieces carry they’re own signatures…?
Amps for example…?




Really... answer this, I dare you…
post #218 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Simple, harmonics extend way above 20khz...a 15 or 16khz extends to 30-32khz and contains information in that region as well. If you cut off at 20khz, wich cheap cables do, then you don't have the info of the extreem highs wich top end cables have and they give you more extreem high info!
Can you give me any examples of cheap cables that "cut off at 20kHz"? I'm not aware of any cable that operates as a low-pass filter. But, it seems to me that if such a cable exists, then that low-pass characteristic is one that can be easily measured.
post #219 of 229

the Cable Cult lives on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Simple, harmonics extend way above 20khz...a 15 or 16khz extends to 30-32khz and contains information in that region as well. If you cut off at 20khz, wich cheap cables do, then you don't have the info of the extreem highs wich top end cables have and they give you more extreem high info!

So to be blunt: if your cables can transport freuqnuencies that only go from 20hz to 20khz, compared to a high end cable that can transport frequencies from 10hz to 40khz, you have simply more info in the lower region and the extreem highs. This is exactly what people report!
Same effect as going from cd to sacd, wich extends way beyond 20khz and IS much more detailed then any cd. Theoretically sacd can go up to 100khz. No loss in the high region = more detailed sound, better signal/noise ratio etc.
Any non broken cable will easy "transport" 0-100khz, no problem.
post #220 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Carter View Post
So you think cables have zero influence....

If this is your belief, explain to us why different anolog pieces carry they’re own signatures…?
Amps for example…?




Really... answer this, I dare you…
I can tell you another story;
I auditoned an amp in an audioshop and i returned the other day and it sounded quite different. I told the guy that the same amp sounded quite different then before! He said, you're right. I modded the amp with better cables inside! He didn't tell me on purpose to see if i could hear anything different and i clearly did! No psycho effect cause i didn't know something was done to amp before i listened to it! Yet i could clearly hear the difference and tell exactly what differences the cable brought to the amp.
post #221 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Febs View Post
Can you give me any examples of cheap cables that "cut off at 20kHz"? I'm not aware of any cable that operates as a low-pass filter. But, it seems to me that if such a cable exists, then that low-pass characteristic is one that can be easily measured.
Then why has a high end cable much more extension in the lower and higher regions then cheap cable? The cheap one sounds cut off, the high end cable let all the frequencies flow easally.

As stated before rcl has influence on frequency responce as well, the best measuring cables also have much better frequency responce and way less frequency loss in the high regions, where the fall off occurs!
post #222 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFerrier View Post
Any non broken cable will easy "transport" 0-100khz, no problem.
If any cable could do it so easally then why all the differences in cables?!

So, clearly one transports the frequencies much more efficient then the other!

And in another thread i posted measurements of that site that measured commercial speakercables and IC's and the differences were huge! 600% and 800%, so clearly not all cables do it as easy as you would me like to think! Some cables have quite clearly much more frequency loss then others, especially in the high region!
post #223 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Carter View Post
So you think cables have zero influence....

If this is your belief, explain to us why different anolog pieces carry they’re own signatures…?
Amps for example…?




Really... answer this, I dare you…
This is a type of a social fungus.
post #224 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
Then why has a high end cable much more extension in the lower and higher regions then cheap cable? The cheap one sounds cut off, the high end cable let all the frequencies flow easally.
You said earlier that there are cheap cables that have a 20kHz low-pass. I asked you to identify any such cables. You haven't responded to my question.
post #225 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Carter View Post
So you think cables have zero influence....

If this is your belief, explain to us why different anolog pieces carry they’re own signatures…?
Amps for example…?




Really... answer this, I dare you…
because most decent amps sound the same?
(if similar spec. etc.)

sshhhhh, dont tell anyone

*runs*
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