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Any prove cables make a difference? - Page 6  

post #76 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Thanks for this I know a lot of audio engineers, engineers, blah blah most I talk to believe there is no discernible difference 'hearing wise'. I have brought expensive cables and so would normally (in various cognitive) tests hear the difference. I have searched the internet "Not just forums", hifi mag's who have an interest more than most, etc so now I come back to my point...... Which is to see if people on this forum (I also post on others as part of my serious search like avforums) have any thing they can offer as many have said they do indeed hear the difference. Or whether I will get the "Go else where" lol
It seems then that you are not really asking for proof, you are just collecting anecdotical experiences/opinions from online communities.
post #77 of 313
Here's a link you might be interested in:
http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p3.htm#interconnects

And the following are related to a comparison of speaker leads of different topologies (cross coaxial vs. standard zip cord). Have posted them before, but here they go anyway:

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm#spkr-leads
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...ZipCord-p1.htm
post #78 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
It seems then that you are not really asking for proof, you are just collecting anecdotical experiences/opinions from online communities.
Hi rsa not sure if you've read my responses but in nearly all responses I ask people for their proof, what makes them know they can hear the difference, etc. If you haven't please read my replies again I have done many.

Just in case it isn't clear let me say it again (so that it seems becomes IT IS CLEAR. lol that if someone says they CAN hear the difference please tell me what makes you know this to be the case. Like repeated blind test (and b4 you repeat it) I know about the difficulty of blind tests, experimentation, etc I don't want to go through my background again

Now rsa can you tell me what makes you know you hear a difference or will it be "I just know I can". If this is all I'm going to get no worries I guess the thread will just close in the end hehe
post #79 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Now rsa can you tell me what makes you know you hear a difference or will it be "I just know I can".
I already told you in this post the claim I will give you on the subject. (Hint: Notice the word believe in that post). I won't make claims beyond a belief statement on this subject.
post #80 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
Here's a link you might be interested in:
http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p3.htm#interconnects

And the following are related to a comparison of speaker leads of different topologies (cross coaxial vs. standard zip cord). Have posted them before, but here they go anyway:

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm#spkr-leads
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...ZipCord-p1.htm
rsa these are very good links and I have seen these many times thats why I'm trying to find if people have opposite proof's or experiments they've done to this since so many can hear their differences. So even though these links are good I'm actually looking for the opposite people who are not saying "we hear no difference, or there is no difference" but people who can say there is a difference in what I hear and heres why. At present I'm not finding much of the latter. Thats all I'm saying
post #81 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by markl View Post
For people just starting out in this hobby (as are most people on this site), it's not surprising that differences can't be heard.

Starting to hear real differences between headphones is equivalent to being a 1st grader learning how to add and subtract in mathematics. At that stage of auiophile/hearing/brain development and training, trying to hear cable differences is like jumping straight to trigonometry.

Or, if you like, it's like learning a new language. You start out with "see spot run" and you master that. But that doesn't make you qualified/prepared to turn around start reading Proust in the original French.

Of course it doesn't make any sense. Over time and experience, your ability to discern these things develops like a muscle.

You may just not be ready yet, Grasshopper.
Unless you go deaf first. Don't turn the volume up just to hear the differences.
post #82 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
I already told you in this post the claim I will give you on the subject. (Hint: Notice the word believe in that post). I won't make claims beyond a belief statement on this subject.
Thanks rsa and I did respond to this saying you are coming from the same place as me <hint> "it's in the threads" :-) So I guess your contribution is over (hopefully not) as you've made your 'belief' statements clear already (and I thank you for that and the links too). Do you have any more links like this or ones that say the opposite I can archive them then?
post #83 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooLism View Post
Unless you go deaf first. Don't turn the volume up just to hear the differences.
Gotta laugh at that one
post #84 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Do you have any more links like this or ones that say the opposite I can archive them then?
I don't, but I know there are several threads here on Headfi describing in detail several comparisons of interconnects, headphone cables, and even power cords, which seems very related to what you are looking for.
post #85 of 313
reano...

...as rsaavedra already stated, you won't get any proof from people on this forum. And to be honest, I doubt your honest interest anyway -- too much bias towards posts from the skeptics corner. And first of all: your post inflation. You're trying too hard to seize this thread with -- as I perceive it -- inquisition-like questions masked with a matey manner.

So I renounce to answer your «personal» question, just out of my intuitive lack of sympathy for your kind of self-presentation. Personally I have no proof to offer anyway. My own blind-test success will tell nothing to the matter.
.
post #86 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Hey this sounds good, how was this done? Who witnessed it and ensured you could spot the cable difference blind? What cable you used. Trust me I really want to know. I'm not bating you. Ta. I will gladly accept a blind test if other independent people witness it no problem whatsoever. Would like to know the cable make etc. Note I'm only talking about interconnects the actual wire not those with other things added like mains conditioners and the like.
First off, I'd just like to agree with JaZZ below because not many people can offer their own "proof" and I definitely fall in this category.

On to the questions.

All tests were done using my personal setup 320Kbps MP3 of original Eagles - Hotel California -> Maxed AlienDAC -> INTERCONNECT -> Maxed SOHA -> HD600 with Cardas cable.

The INTERCONNECT was switched back and forth and I listened to the same song like 20 times by now, switching cables with every time.

The testing was not witnessed, so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that it was done with no bias toward any configuration and all ego set aside.

I have 3 cables on my desk, all were made by me and all are around the same 40cm length:
1) Silver Plated Copper 6 x 24AWG (3 signal - 3 ground) in flat braid
2) Belden 89259 22AWG bare copper with 95% copper sheild
3) Modified VenHaus using 24AWG 99.99% pure silver with 100% unbleached cotton as dialect instead of teflon tube.

After listening to these extensively, I had the VenHaus in there for about a month, the Belden for about 2 weeks and I just made the SPC (hasn't burned in yet), I can definitely tell the difference between every cable.

Just not to start some flame war, this is purely in my oppinion, tested by my ears alone and in my setup.

I thouht the Belden 89259 had a very nice sound, slightly warmer than the rest, but the detail was still there and nothing was lost in comparison to the rest. Of course, the cable is much stiffer, but we're talking purely sound quality wise here.

The VenHaus cable has been my long time favorite (about 2 months or so) and did everything very well. It wasn't as warm as the 89259, but the highs were clearer and I enjoyed the slightly punchier bass hits. Generally a very clean and detailed cable. By "clean" I mean simply that you can really hear the instruments seperately instead of playing together at the same time making a sound that combines both.

The SPC cable was slightly dissapointing compared to the rest. Still kicks ass compared to the RadioShack brand RCA's that I use for testing new builds in my basement, but really not as good as the other 2. It didn't have all the detail of the other 2 and it's as if you listen to a song, hear all of it, then plug this cable in and all of a sudden, there's just less there. The overall sound was very much in between the 2 others. The bass was ok, the highs were ok, but the mids weren't as smooth. Plus, there was kind of this added presence to the sound that just didn't sit well with me. I'm sorry, I can't describe that last sentence better, it just didn't sound as good.

I didn't skip the "I will gladly accept a blind test if other independent people witness it no problem whatsoever." sentence, it's just that I never went to any Head-Fi meets and nobody I know is that much into audio to want to spend time listening to different cables. As a result of the testing, I will be getting rid of that SPC interconnect in the for-sale thread, just didn't sound that great to me.

I can definitely say that between the 3 cables, the differences are not life changing, but are easily noticed when you listen repeatedly to the same song and it's still fresh in your mind that you KNOW what you want it to sound like. I'd say it's the added 10% that really makes you love or just like the music.
post #87 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
reano...

...as rsaavedra already stated, you won't get any proof from people on this forum. And to be honest, I doubt your honest interest anyway -- too much bias towards posts from the skeptics corner. And first of all: your post inflation. You're trying too hard to seize this thread with -- as I perceive it -- inquisition-like questions masked with a matey manner.

So I renounce to answer your «personal» question, just out of my intuitive lack of sympathy for your kind of self-presentation. Personally I have no proof to offer anyway. My own blind-test success will tell nothing to the matter.
.
lol then why waste your time posting? If you have no proof to offer anyway? lol. Have to laugh. Like I said this is normally what results. Some have given some interesting links and I'm glad about that. Others just (zzzzz)

"So I renounce to answer your «personal» question, just out of my intuitive lack of sympathy for your kind of self-presentation." <-- your post. Then don't answer lol.

You don't need to believe my interest. I have the cables, the rig's and asked a genuine question to which I must say is towards (arguments) the skeptics side and thats why I now lean towards there but am willing to be persuaded. What was your blind test what did it entail, what cables, etc?

My motive I guess is I want to buy some more exotic cables but just want to hear from people if there is a hearing difference so I guess it's kind of a reality check.

Are forums for this type of thing? Question, reviews, sharing ideas, etc?
post #88 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
First off, I'd just like to agree with JaZZ below because not many people can offer their own "proof" and I definitely fall in this category.

On to the questions.
At last FallenAngel this is more like it. Do you have a link for the cable that eventually won? So I can see the range may buy for my portable setup if they do and test it.

No ranting but straight to the point. Of course I would normally say yes you need more independence but ..... it's a good starting point that can be taken further. Any links apprieciated. Ultimately you are right Fallen I will ask for independence or I would just accept anything. Thats why I ask for independent reviews, etc (there are ton's that say the opposite and show that the participants couldn't hear no difference but thats not true for all audio components. Bet you can tell the difference between a hornet and a boostaroo (and the price is maybe $300 difference) the cables can be a lot more, etc.

I keep saying (zzzzzzzz...) I have brought these fancy cables I have loads for various applications and it doesn't hurt to get a reality check. I'm from UK and I remember a couple of lone voices (in politics) saying out don't go to Iraq there are no mass weapons and people thought they were cranks. Now they swing to the other side and I think they were asking the same question "where's the proof...."
post #89 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Phils you have made a lot of contribution to this thread, not sure how useful people find it but as you seem to ridicule a lot of people's logic please enlighten me with your logic. What do you have to say? Can you hear the difference? If so please explain on. Thanks
1. I have criticized the "logic" of saying that "because people argue about whether cables make a difference, that proves they don't make a difference." That's just stupid.

2. My own view of whether cables make a difference is not based on logic per se, by on my own listening experiences. These have been detailed in my many prior threads, but to summarize:

a) I used to be a died-in-the-wool skeptic who criticized others who thought cables made a difference. At one point, however, after my headphone system reached a certain quality, and I had more experience in listening to various components, the differences between CD players, amps, and even cables became noticeable.

b) My claims that I have heard audbile differences in cables are not based on switching back and forth every few seconds or minutes between different cables, etc., while listening to a musical selection. Instead, there are a number of musical selections that I am intimately familiar with. I have listened to them so many times that know them as well as I know my wife's voice. When I have not changed my system for several weeks, for example, I come to know the nuances and tone of these selections very well. If something then changes in the presentation, such as the change one gets from changing out the source, I can generally notice it after some additional time listening (i.e., more than a few seconds or minutes), and the change is often quite obvious (i.e., it may not be huge in magnitude, but it is definitely there).

c) At one point in my experience, I changed out some power cables in my system (made my LAT International) replacing some DIY power cables I was using. The was a noticeable difference in the sound, especially in the reduction of sibilance, which I hate and which had been causing me to stop listening to my system after about an hour. I don't know whether I have dirty power or some other issue with interference at my house, but the power cords made a difference.

d) I tried several interconnects in my system, typically preferring the sound of a relatively cheap copper interconnet made by Better Cables over more expensive interrconnects I tried. At one point, I even found myself in the midst of an "accidental" blind test, in which I had changed out the Better Cables to a silver cable made a company whose name I can't remember (and might not mention anyway), and I really did not like how it changed the sound. I thought something was wrong with my system, and only when I investigated to see what was wrong did I find out I had changed interconnects a week earlier. I eventually ended up with an interconnect from LAT International, which I prefer by a slight margin over the Better Cables interconnect.

I have had other similar experiences, but this is just a sample.
post #90 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Hi Tout, thanks for your response. I would say if you don't what to give me the details and how, then best to contribute to another thread. I actually want to know all about this. To quote "Yet, if you present the proof, about 1/5 better measuring results in all aspects, they still deny the truth and state the differences are small to be heard." Can you present this evidence I really would like to hear your valued contribution and how this better measuring results in improved the sound to the listener. I would be more than grateful to go and buy this cable for myself no worries. I have done the various searches on here and am trying to get people to deliver some details and (hope this doesn't offend but probably will) All I read is "you won't believe". I try to explain I have good kit, I've brought many a cable, I can find middle C on a piano and play Beethoven's moonlight sinata, I love music, I have a reasonably good education, etc, zzzz and all I ask is if you have the evidence please let me look. Thats all ....
Always nice to insult people.

the proof is in the "i want to learn about high end cables" thread. Instead of insulting people you don't really know, you should spend more time on the web to actually find the proof for yourself. There IS a website that measured commercial cables and proved the Nordost cables measured considderably better then any other cable. Also there is extensive info on the ohno process of making the single crystal cables and WHY they sound better then any other regular cable. These single crystal cables are usually used in the high end cables.

So, maybe, with your reasonably good education are looking in the wrong direction and are looking more into insulting people!

Your reasonably good education didn't teach you anything about manners!

sceptics are always ignorant: no matter how much proven or measurable evidence you provide, all they say is: those differences are too small to be heard. Maybe their minds are too small to comprehend.
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