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Any prove cables make a difference? - Page 5  

post #61 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Precisely correct? The fact that there is an argument about the validity or existence of a thing necessarily proves it does not exist? It's shocking to hear folks who advance scientific principles and "proof" so strongly embrace and defend such faulty logic.

Phils you have made a lot of contribution to this thread, not sure how useful people find it but as you seem to ridicule a lot of people's logic please enlighten me with your logic. What do you have to say? Can you hear the difference? If so please explain on. Thanks
post #62 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
once again if you have two different CD players and listen to a good recording you can here distinct differences. For intance listing to the ankle bell in the Jimmy Lee Robinson recording from APO with one CD player (and everything else equal) the bell sounded more hollow compared to another player where it sounded flat and tinny. The DAC's and the way jitter is handled makes differences that are clearly audible.
Please let us know more. What cables, etc what were differences you heard from this supplier? Thanks
post #63 of 313
here we go again:

every week a thread about this.

Yes, there are designs that are proven to be better then standard designs. Especially those with ohno crystal technology. Developed by prof. ohno at the universaty in japan.

Yet, if you present the proof, about 1/5 better measuring results in all aspects, they still deny the truth and state the differences are small to be heard. Not so in my own practical experience. Also, another independent test shows that there is a variation of about 600% and 800% in the area´s that matter the most in a cable! These variations are for instance a magnitude bigger then between any amp or cd player! yet, these differences ARE recognized!

If you don´t hear a difference, don´t spend that much on cables, if you do, optimize your system. That simple.
post #64 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chesebert View Post
You can look at current distribution, electron deposition on insulation, IMD, THD, phase shift, and the best part is, all of those specification, along with R, C, are relative to frequency at which the signal is measured at that given moment. The test can be done, but boy is it tedious. And also remember your instrument needs to be at least as sensitive or more sensitive to the micro changes in the difference of those parameters. The ability to look at electron movement and electron deposition within a cable is certainly beyond the capability of many cable makers. Remember electron don't actually move themselves.

The design of cable is very much, within an engineering perspective, an applied quantum mechanics problem.

Science can explain all those 'I can' or 'I can't' argument, its whether anyone wants to spend the $$ and to such extreme length to explain it. With the barrier of testing sitting at the stratosphere of $$$ needed, most manufacturer relies on their 'golden ear' to determine the sound of one cable.

You can very much make an analogy to chocolate taster, one of the most important position, at the major Belgium chocolate manufacturer. Chocolate tasters are by definition, hired to taste, and determine whether the chocolate taste is good or not. It is entirely possible to analysize the composition of the chocolate via good chemical engineering, but it sure is quicker to have the tester tell you, the sample doesn't taste right and need to add few more grams of coco powder to the mix.
Thanks for this I'm an engineer (Mechanical engineer) by training and so do understand these things don't get me wrong but people can clearly taste the difference between chocolates we all can (those without disabilities, etc). Again depending on the degree (cadbury's, nestle, etc all good chocolate but very easily discernable tastes). What I am saying here do we have good cables (some with very big difference in price) where there is such a discernable difference. If so no worries just let me know.
post #65 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeone-j View Post
IMHO, and from my experience there's a difference,depending on material. Some ICs' will allow clear and clean highs and other ICs' will tend to allow a better lower end of the frequencies. Also alot of it has to do with your equipment, materials used, and different variables.It also is trial and error, to find that sweet spot that your looking for.
Examples being?
post #66 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
it's usually the EE's that say cables don't make any difference, because all they know are simple classical physics. however, cables are a problem in quantum mechanics because you're dealing with electrons and tunnelling effects. i've taken a year of QM in college and can imagine the complex interactions but don't know enough to put my finger on it and predict what would make the ideal cable.
You seem here (correct me if I'm wrong) to be talking more about your own college course than what I have asked. My Full time Job is in Security and Performance for the IT industry and part time recording and video production in the music and film industry. IN IT we are well aware of quantum mechanics especially in it's development use for creating key pairs for online security but back to the point can you hear the difference? If you can please provide examples, etc I'm all ears.
post #67 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick82 View Post
Exactly! Audio is very complex but the engineers think it is simple. Having incomplete knowledge that is 100% correct doesn't make it correct. But for some reason the engineers still think they are right, they don't even listen to the cables because they have already made up their minds.
Hi thanks for your response. In this case I am not an electronic, electrical engineer, etc (just in case). I also don't have 100% knowledge of chocolates to reference a previous tread or many things but I can tell the difference. Now to quote "they don't even listen to the cables because they have already made up their minds". Do you listen to the cables and do you hear the difference these cables make? If yes please give me some info. I am really interested in finding out. What is the brand of cable, etc?

Ta
post #68 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp11801 View Post
same pointless arguement could be made for amps and cd players as well
Seems like you have any equally condesending argument as the "if you can't hear a difference" crowd

Glad to hear things sound great from your lofty vantagepoint

now after having said that cables are the last item I would change in a system. Headphones and speakers, then source then amp and last cables but they can make a pretty nice difference. BTW my cables are not multi thousand name brand cables just a great cable that a local guy makes that sounded better than most of the cables at my local shop.
To be honest I don't think Steve was taking that stance (just the way I read it anyway). JP thanks for your response and what is this cable that the 'local shop' makes? What makes you buy it? What sound differences do you hear compared with say another reasonable good cable? Please let me know I really am interested to hear. <--- Really (not a joke either). Also which cable that you have/had made the 'pretty nice' difference? Thanks
post #69 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourmaline View Post
here we go again:

every week a thread about this.

Yes, there are designs that are proven to be better then standard designs. Especially those with ohno crystal technology. Developed by prof. ohno at the universaty in japan.

Yet, if you present the proof, about 1/5 better measuring results in all aspects, they still deny the truth and state the differences are small to be heard. Not so in my own practical experience. Also, another independent test shows that there is a variation of about 600% and 800% in the area´s that matter the most in a cable! These variations are for instance a magnitude bigger then between any amp or cd player! yet, these differences ARE recognized!

If you don´t hear a difference, don´t spend that much on cables, if you do, optimize your system. That simple.
Hi Tout, thanks for your response. I would say if you don't what to give me the details and how, then best to contribute to another thread. I actually want to know all about this. To quote "Yet, if you present the proof, about 1/5 better measuring results in all aspects, they still deny the truth and state the differences are small to be heard." Can you present this evidence I really would like to hear your valued contribution and how this better measuring results in improved the sound to the listener. I would be more than grateful to go and buy this cable for myself no worries. I have done the various searches on here and am trying to get people to deliver some details and (hope this doesn't offend but probably will) All I read is "you won't believe". I try to explain I have good kit, I've brought many a cable, I can find middle C on a piano and play Beethoven's moonlight sinata, I love music, I have a reasonably good education, etc, zzzz and all I ask is if you have the evidence please let me look. Thats all ....
post #70 of 313
It you must have proof before you can just relax and trust what your own ears tell you Analysis Plus has it for you........they are engineering group that measures cable performance for various large cable companies using sophisticated analysis gear, they also design and make thier our cables.......check the white paper section.

AP

Even though they can prove thier cable design passes more complete undistorted music signal that other cable designs, I still prefer the sound of other designs (I have owned many AP cables in the past)

Regrdless of what they prove only thing that matters is what sounds good to my ears in my system......
post #71 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel View Post
It you must have proof before you can just relax and trust what your own ears tell you Analysis Plus has it for you........they are engineering group that measures cable performance for various large cable companies using sophisticated analysis gear, they also design and make thier our cables.......check the white paper section.

AP

Even though they can prove thier cable design passes more complete undistorted music signal that other cable designs, I still prefer the sound of other designs (I have owned many AP cables in the past)

Regrdless of what they prove only thing that matters is what sounds good to my ears in my system......
Hi DarkAngel, You do sound (how shall I say) a bit angry. I am quite relaxed (hoho haha) just really wanting to hear and learn from people like yourself but like I have said I ask for posters to provide (and let me say it clearer) their experience and how they were able to proof it was better. Thats all. I will read this document you point me too and see what it brings. Do you have some examples of the cables you use and which ones they sounded better to your ears in your system on. Thanks.

There seems to be a familiar pattern:-

1) Some sort of "I can't believe you can't tell"
2) Then a resignation with a statement like "It sounds good to me", "Don't buy then".

These are actually quite funny and I guess I must accept this in the end hehe

Just read some of the whitepapers and thanks for supplying them. They start of with the usual properties of metal, etc. All good stuff then a user reviewing the cable "notes became fuller, bass more evident" or similar.

Dark you may know the site more than me is there anywhere whey they gave the cables to some able users and then said sit back we are going to test some cables and let your 'ears' be the judge ... and the winner is Analysis plus. I emphasise to state my point. I can't really see it. Don't want to be funny but many a good cable site has the same thing. QED for example. Alot of components in the audio chain have very discernable differences 'speakers' for example. Now I would say there are at least as many cable brands as speakers but can you give me some examples of clear discernable sounds from brands (Say x vs y). I am really interested in digital/optical sound differences too. You may not believe this but I am completely open to your suggestions, etc.
post #72 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Hi I understand what you are saying and thanks for your response but I am convinced that if I put my B&W 805s speakers vs my Kef Q1 speakers you would (in a blind test) hear the difference. The same for my linn lp12 vs my Project Xpression turntable. Same with my Grado RS1 vs my Senn HD600.
Yes, measurable differences between speakers, headphones, and even sources can be easily shown in their frequency responses, and other data charts and plots.

Quote:
Now what I am saying is if you put say a basic but good interconnect in a system listened then changed that for some exotic £1000+ one could you tell the difference in a blind test.
What I'm saying is that I haven't done that. What I did say is that beware of the so called "blind tests" and "double blind tests" because those are really hard to carry out properly. So even if someone shows you some "proof" of X or Y facts with this and that blind test, beware of how properly executed they were.

Quote:
But I have no problem if cables do make a good discernable difference just let me know. Respond here ...
I have no problem either. In fact I believe my Zu cable makes a difference with respect to the stock cable in my Sennheisers. Cables can make measurable differences in some cases (inductance, impedance, capacitance, resistance...), depending on cable length, cable girth, conductors, geometry, insulators, shielding... But that doesn't mean I (or anyone here maybe) can show you any proof they make a difference that can be heard, or point you to any research on the matter. At least I don't know of any thorough proper study on the subject. I'm not claiming there are no such studies though, just that I'm not aware of them.
post #73 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
Yes, measurable differences between speakers, headphones, and even sources can be easily shown in their frequency responses, and other data charts and plots.


What I'm saying is that I haven't done that. What I did say is that beware of the so called "blind tests" and "double blind tests" because those are really hard to carry out properly. So even if someone shows you some "proof" of X or Y facts with this and that blind test, beware of how properly executed they were.


I have no problem either. In fact I believe my Zu cable makes a difference with respect to the stock cable in my Sennheisers. Cables can make measurable differences in some cases (inductance, impedance, capacitance, resistance...), but that doesn't mean I (or anyone here maybe) can show you any proof they make a difference that can be heard, or point you to any research on the matter. At least I don't know of any thorough proper study on the subject. I'm not claiming there are no such studies though, just that I'm not aware of them.
Rsa thanks a lot you are coming from the same place I am. I have the Russ andrews and Stefan Audioart Senn replacement cable too. Yep that is what I am after the 'heard' difference. Because you can hear the difference on the other components. I too like you am hoping someone can show something. Ok next could it be that we are all deceived and there is no difference to really be heard (don't kill me I'm just asking).. You may say but can we all be wrong yes you can. Many Nazis millions of Nazis thought Jews should die (I'm not a Jew just in case), Many millions thought slavery was a good thing, many millions thought it was fair for women not to vote and so on yes millions can be deceived and truly believe it. Hence why I want to here some good arguments. Like I said the source, the amp, the speakers, blah all have no brainer discernment across the range but can someone convince me with a cable of equal price variance or even more you would get a no brainer improvement.
post #74 of 313
Will put this part in a separate post. I notice it wasn't included in your quote, because I edited my post adding this afterwards.

If you are serious about this inquiry you should research not just forums online like you are doing. Look for reputable audio engineering and cognitive-related journals, search the internet, go to a library, talk to audio engineers and psychologists, physicians studying audio perception. You would slowly narrow down and find researchers that are either seriously/rigurously working on that precise topic, or that know what has been researched and what is currently known or scientifically accepted about this topic.
post #75 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post

If you are serious about this inquiry you should research not just forums online like you are doing. Look for reputable audio engineering and cognitive-related journals, search the internet, go to a library, talk to audio engineers and psychologists, physicians studying audio perception. You would slowly narrow down and find researchers that are either seriously/rigorously working on that precise topic, or that know what has been researched and what is currently known or scientifically accepted about this topic.
Thanks for this I know a lot of audio engineers, engineers, blah blah most I talk to believe there is no discernible difference 'hearing wise'. I have brought expensive cables and so would normally (in various cognitive) tests hear the difference. I have searched the internet "Not just forums", hifi mag's who have an interest more than most, etc so now I come back to my point...... Which is to see if people on this forum (I also post on others as part of my serious search like avforums) have any thing they can offer as many have said they do indeed hear the difference. Or whether I will get the "Go else where" lol
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