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Any prove cables make a difference? - Page 3  

post #31 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by markl View Post
Over time and experience, your ability to discern these things develops like a muscle.
This is my planned path to becoming a ghost whisperer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
If cables made a real difference, there wouldn't be an argument.
Precisely correct. No one argues about cartridges or headphones and speakers.

To reply to the OP, there isn't enough difference for me. I just brought in a bit more than $1,000 selling various no longer in use "high-end" cables (to a variety of newbies?) and sent the money to Acoustic Sciences for a "real" difference.
post #32 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeteeth View Post
Precisely correct. No one argues about cartridges or headphones and speakers.
Precisely correct? The fact that there is an argument about the validity or existence of a thing necessarily proves it does not exist? It's shocking to hear folks who advance scientific principles and "proof" so strongly embrace and defend such faulty logic.
post #33 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeteeth View Post
This is my planned path to becoming a ghost whisperer.
Precisely correct. No one argues about cartridges or headphones and speakers.
When was the last time you heard someone say "I can't hear a difference between different kinds of speakers."?

There's no question that speakers sound different from each other. There are plenty of people with "refined" hearing and loads of experience that say that there is no difference between cables. If there is a significant difference, it would be easy to prove. Then the argument would move on to WHAT KIND of a difference.

See ya
Steve
post #34 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Precisely correct? The fact that there is an argument about the validity or existence of a thing necessarily proves it does not exist. It's shocking to hear folks who advance scientific principles and "proof" so strongly embrace and defend such faulty logic.
X2!
post #35 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post

There's no question that speakers sound different from each other.
What about amps and CD players? Do they sound different or not? Any proof either way, that is, in terms of listening tests?
post #36 of 313
I used to think that there was not much difference in cables until I met a vendor who loaned me different cables and showed me you could actually tune the system with different cables. Unfortunate not many of us have access to someone who can give different cables to try. If you did you would see that you can really change the sound.
post #37 of 313
once again if you have two different CD players and listen to a good recording you can here distinct differences. For intance listing to the ankle bell in the Jimmy Lee Robinson recording from APO with one CD player (and everything else equal) the bell sounded more hollow compared to another player where it sounded flat and tinny. The DAC's and the way jitter is handled makes differences that are clearly audible.
post #38 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluenote View Post
once again if you have two different CD players and listen to a good recording you can here distinct differences.
Well, I would agree with you, but bigshot has said that after a basic level of quality all CD players sound the same, so that means he disagrees with you, and since he disagrees with you, that must mean the proposition is not universally accepted (i.e., there is an "argument"), which further means that you (and I) must be wrong -- if I understand the illogic correctly.
post #39 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
There's no question that speakers sound different from each other.
True.

Quote:
There are plenty of people with "refined" hearing and loads of experience that say that there is no difference between cables.
Not enough experience, apparently: Otherwise they would content with the statement: «Personally I've never heard sonic differences between cables.» That's the only valid statement one person can make. -- The compulsion to generalization in this case is somewhat reproducible, though (see my previous post): There's the choice between the own inferiority («poor me, why can't I hear what others hear!») and the own superiority («poor idiots, they're so easy to fool!»).

BTW, there are plenty of people with «refined» hearing and loads of experience who say that they hear differences between cables.
.
post #40 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
Why isn't that "proof". I agree completely. I can hear differences (quite substantial sometimes) in cables used. Is there really any other "proof" that can ever be provided. Skeptics ask for concrete evidence, but not the electrical measurement kind because of course there are resistance / capacitance differences between cables of different makeup. .
You can look at current distribution, electron deposition on insulation, IMD, THD, phase shift, and the best part is, all of those specification, along with R, C, are relative to frequency at which the signal is measured at that given moment. The test can be done, but boy is it tedious. And also remember your instrument needs to be at least as sensitive or more sensitive to the micro changes in the difference of those parameters. The ability to look at electron movement and electron deposition within a cable is certainly beyond the capability of many cable makers. Remember electron don't actually move themselves.

The design of cable is very much, within an engineering perspective, an applied quantum mechanics problem.

Science can explain all those 'I can' or 'I can't' argument, its whether anyone wants to spend the $$ and to such extreme length to explain it. With the barrier of testing sitting at the stratosphere of $$$ needed, most manufacturer relies on their 'golden ear' to determine the sound of one cable.

You can very much make an analogy to chocolate taster, one of the most important position, at the major Belgium chocolate manufacturer. Chocolate tasters are by definition, hired to taste, and determine whether the chocolate taste is good or not. It is entirely possible to analysize the composition of the chocolate via good chemical engineering, but it sure is quicker to have the tester tell you, the sample doesn't taste right and need to add few more grams of coco powder to the mix.
post #41 of 313
IMHO, and from my experience there's a difference,depending on material. Some ICs' will allow clear and clean highs and other ICs' will tend to allow a better lower end of the frequencies. Also alot of it has to do with your equipment, materials used, and different variables.It also is trial and error, to find that sweet spot that your looking for.
post #42 of 313
it's usually the EE's that say cables don't make any difference, because all they know are simple classical physics. however, cables are a problem in quantum mechanics because you're dealing with electrons and tunnelling effects. i've taken a year of QM in college and can imagine the complex interactions but don't know enough to put my finger on it and predict what would make the ideal cable.
post #43 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
it's usually the EE's that say cables don't make any difference, because all they know are simple classical physics.
It's usually the EEs that came from those 2nd rate programs Most, not all, EEs tend to ignore 2ndary and tertiary effects (electron deposition and migration would be somewhere in that category). Why.. because it would make circuit analysis impossible and most 'software' cough..yes we are degenerated to using software to analyze circuit these days, do not take any account of those effects. Granted, some custom in-house tools do take into account many of the 2ndary effects like those C, R in wire, but STILL IGNORE the tertiary effects......that is a fact of life, and it would be inefficient to take into account everything anyway.

Engineering is about cutting as many corners as you can The KISS principle is very widely used by all in this profession
post #44 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
it's usually the EE's that say cables don't make any difference, because all they know are simple classical physics. however, cables are a problem in quantum mechanics because you're dealing with electrons and tunnelling effects. i've taken a year of QM in college and can imagine the complex interactions but don't know enough to put my finger on it and predict what would make the ideal cable.
Exactly! Audio is very complex but the engineers think it is simple. Having incomplete knowledge that is 100% correct doesn't make it correct. But for some reason the engineers still think they are right, they don't even listen to the cables because they have already made up their minds.
post #45 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
Consider the validity of an argument that has to resort to condescention... "Well, if you can't hear a difference, your ears are ignorant." ...to make a point.

If cables made a real difference, there wouldn't be an argument. There would be clear and convincing evidence. The only evidence I see in the arguments made in the defense of high end cables is that they seem to function as an ego boost of some sort. That's fine for some folks, but my self worth is invested in things other than stereo systems, cars and designer clothing.

See ya
Steve
same pointless arguement could be made for amps and cd players as well
Seems like you have any equally condesending argument as the "if you can't hear a difference" crowd

Glad to hear things sound great from your lofty vantagepoint

now after having said that cables are the last item I would change in a system. Headphones and speakers, then source then amp and last cables but they can make a pretty nice difference. BTW my cables are not multi thousand name brand cables just a great cable that a local guy makes that sounded better than most of the cables at my local shop.
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