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Any prove cables make a difference? - Page 12  

post #166 of 313
2/24/07 at 4:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundEdit View Post
Pretty ironic, though I'd disagree with the "unfamiliar equipment" part.
I'm not sure why. If you mess with my daughter's vocal chords, I bet I can discern some pretty minor differences. If you let me listen for 1 minute to a voice I've never heard before, and then change it, it may be very hard for me to pick it up -- putting aside the other artificial test conditions. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you get the point.

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post #167 of 313
2/24/07 at 4:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
I'm not sure why. If you mess with my daughter's vocal chords, I bet I can discern some pretty minor differences. If you let me listen for 1 minute to a voice I've never heard before, and then change it, it may be very hard for me to pick it up -- putting aside the other artificial test conditions. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but you get the point.
Hmm...interesting point. Hey! I bet it could be tested
post #168 of 313
2/24/07 at 4:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
There's already an extensive thread discussing a possible test or series of tests regarding cables, i.e., how to construct a test that might shed some light on the issue. It more or less got nowhere, because of differences over testing methodolgy, what exactly should be tested, etc. The test you're proposing has a number of problems, of course, including, but not limited to, the fact that listening on unfamiliar equipment is not very useful.
my test is only to prove that different cables can sound different. it's not meant to prove that more expensive cables preserve the audio signal better, hell i don't even beleive that. i don't see any problems with my test to prove specifically that not all cables sound the same. and oh i know some cable-making techniques that will make damn sure that a cable sounds different. it will be so obvious that even on an ipod there will be an audible difference that's easy to tell.

and it's a mini-meet, so people can bring their own equipment.
post #169 of 313
2/24/07 at 4:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
Not always. That is the case only if the "claimant" wants to convince somebody else about such claim, wants those other people to share the same conviction/belief. If the claimant doesn't care about other people not being convinced about their convictions, there is no obligation anywhere to "prove" any claim. Now if the claimant doesn't care about supporting/proving the claim, the challenger is free to simply ignore it. Of course, the challenger is also free to point out that an unsupported claim has been advocated. But if the challenger wants to disqualify that claim, or rather, is truly interested in its validity, given the claimant's indiference about it then it is on the challenger's shoulders to find either support for that claim (researching the matter properly and actually finding existing support/evidence), or support against the claim, counter examples to strongly disqualify or weaken it. So the challenger, if truly interested, would do a bit more than just being a lazy nail annoyingly and repeteadly asking for proof that is known not to exist, or asking for anecdotal references/opinions that are already known to exist, easily available and documented. This all imho of course
RSA who are you speaking about here? Just interested to know? In this thread itself you will find links and documents that show tests where people have tried to hear the difference and couldn't. I keep saying this you CAN HEAR the difference in other components like speakers which are far more complex than cables (so all this it's complex to hear...) could also mean there isn't nothing to hear. How much more times must I say all I'm after is a report or similiar (I say this to capture a range of documentation, etc) that shows a test where people go along with their cables put it in a high end system, listen to the music with their ears and statistical most of the people are able to say yep. I can tell that, that cable X or Y is there. Let me make it easier. Not even that the sound is 'better' but I can detect when the cable is changed so I can hear the difference with my ears <--- easier again. Now some have said but so difficult to detect with the ears? Well why is this? Because you can do the same test (and I have categorically stated) that you could tell the difference between my 'quality' and basic speakers. I am in UK not sure who in here is from it but I challenge right now and I promise you can come to my house in my studio and we do the test and you can come back on here and see if you could tell the difference. Easy and simple. I ask the same could you do the same for your own cables. I could highlight this again with other audio components using the same test device (yep your own ears that many on here so frequently suggest) I CAN DO IT for those components. So anyone in the UK who wants to test my seriousness then please accept this. And you bring your cables and your own music with the passages you know really well and show me your claims of hearing the difference. Is that serious enough?
post #170 of 313
2/24/07 at 5:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Yes, it is a hobbyist's forum -- a place to have fun and commune with others who enjoy audio and headphone related stuff -- notwithstanding the fact that some folks seem hell bent to take a lot of the fun out of the hobby.
Who is this? hehe

I don't know what else to say except this. Not sure who in UK here but I say this now I promise you can come to my house and test my basic speakers vs my quality ones A/B with your own ears and own music with the music you know really well and you bring along your cables and we do the same. I could also do this with other components in the audio change. Using our ears and our music as this is the best test equipment right? As many agree here yes?

Now for the biggy and in bold for future reference

IF YOU OR ME ARE ABLE TO DETECT WHICH CABLES ARE BEING CHANGED I WILL COME BACK ON HERE AND SAY LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THIS IS THE CABLE AND THIS IS WHAT WE FOUND OUT

No worries no problem at all I want this to work <--- Let me say that again I WANT IT TO WORK. <--- I WANT TO SHUT THESE SKEPTICS UP and again ..... you get where I'm coming from. Now if anyone in the UK let me know I will even pay your train fair (within reason) and pick you up from the train station, make sure your well fed and comfortable and drop you back off. Bring the cables and your own music. Now I can detect it well enough in my reasonable good set up for other audio components is someone now going to say they can only detect if the equipment is £100,000? Or in fact bring your portable rig if thats where you hear the sound difference.

Now I can't be more fair than that ... about my seriousness I have searched the web, looked in Journals and if I had found that report, that document, that evidence I would bring it here but there simply isn't any that I can find but there are plenty (and before you ask) just read the links in the thread. Thats show it couldn't be detected by the ears......YET, YET, YET you CAN, CAN, CAN detect other audio components differences with YOUR EARS, EARS, EARS.
post #171 of 313
2/24/07 at 5:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
You make two very good points, and I respect your position. And a debate on these issues is fun from time to time. And I've learned also from folks who I disagree with. But if you hang around here long enough, you'll see why "we" get frustrated by constant thread krapping from certain people (a few of which have appeared in this thread), whose purpose seems not to engage in a fun debate or learn from others, but to advance a dogmatic position in a manner designed to offend people. When it pops up in every thread whenever someone asks about cables, you get sick of it.
Hopefully from my thread above you can see my seriousness in willing to pay for the transport and food cost of the person (UK based of course) who can bring their cables and show me they can detect the difference using the very thing they say tells them the difference 'THEIR EARS' using the thing they know real well 'THEIR MUSIC' I am very serious and want somewhere for this to be shown. I have various cables and what to see some evidence of the discernible difference in sound. I'm not sure how I can make this more clear than saying I will pay for someone to come and demo it and I will. I want to learn from others and will pay for the privilege to see this demonstrated.

Phils is this fair enough or no?
post #172 of 313
2/24/07 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
Buddy, I would have to agree with you completely and would like to have this argument conclusive. There ARE measurable differences among different cables, but there are no devices that can tell how a cable would "sound" so measuring anything about it is completely useless. Therefore, since there is no way to measure how a cable sounds, it's also completely useless to debate on proof of a cable sounding different.

It seems like the only real way to measure that a cable sounds different is to hear it. I've said this before.
Hi Fallen as per my thread above I agree and want someone to show me they hear it? I will pay for them to come and show me it? Is this fair enough? As you said if they say they can hear it then whats wrong with them using their ears to show they can hear it? Thats the cable I want!!!
post #173 of 313
2/24/07 at 5:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
We can put this to rest once and for all. If someone is interested and lives in southern california, we can all get together and do a blind test. There will be a very high-end cable made out of exotic materials. Then there will be two other cables that look exactly the same: another one of the high-end cable and the other is a cheap RatShack cable. And you have to say whether cable A or cable B matches the high-end cable. this would be done on what is my opinion a very hi-end DAC, amp, and headphone (or speakers). i'm sure many of us can score 16/16 on this.
So here is a challenge for those in California and here is one from me for those in the UK (train travel). The only test equipment you need to bring is your ears. Or we could look at meeting up with a portable rig of some kind. I could bring my Grace m902, and RS1's someone could bring there own CD player and music and we just have the cables as the difference. Like I said earlier if it were speakers you could tell the difference with your ears.
post #174 of 313
2/24/07 at 5:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
my test is only to prove that different cables can sound different. it's not meant to prove that more expensive cables preserve the audio signal better, hell i don't even beleive that. i don't see any problems with my test to prove specifically that not all cables sound the same. and oh i know some cable-making techniques that will make damn sure that a cable sounds different. it will be so obvious that even on an ipod there will be an audible difference that's easy to tell.

and it's a mini-meet, so people can bring their own equipment.
I codt Im hoping you wouldn't make the cables defective in some way like I said in previous post you want a reasonable quality/basic cable vs the one someone else likes or even the ones they own themselves where they say that cable is warm and that silver is bright, etc. That brings out the bass, this separates the instruments. Cotdt I will be very interested in the results of the test and how it was done. Please update me even privately and especially the cables used for a mini rig (always on the look out).

People say they are able to detect these differences between their cable why not go and do it. I tell you what if you do it this would be something we should put as a sticky!!!
post #175 of 313
2/24/07 at 5:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
I codt Im hoping you wouldn't make the cables defective in some way like I said in previous post you want a reasonable quality/basic cable vs the one someone else likes or even the ones they own themselves where they say that cable is warm and that silver is bright, etc. That brings out the bass, this separates the instruments. Cotdt I will be very interested in the results of the test and how it was done. Please update me even privately and especially the cables used for a mini rig (always on the look out).

People say they are able to detect these differences between their cable why not go and do it. I tell you what if you do it this would be something we should put as a sticky!!!
yes i am also very curious to see the result of such a test. i can put together some exotic vacuum-contained silver cables or maybe try to borrow one from someone. they have very low inductance but high capacitance. unfortunately, people say my test is flawed and have their own proposals, but nobody can agree on a test proposal so these meetings are impossible to organize. if i can just obtain these exotic cables and hear a difference for myself, i can send them over to you for you to try.
post #176 of 313
2/24/07 at 5:57am
reano,
or should I say anal because that's what all your posts are as well as being offensive to virtually everyone who has posted on this thread.

I'd worked out you were an English 'wind-up merchant' long before you finally 'came out' two posts ago.

On no forum before have I encountered anyone who has so dis-respected and insulted the handles/monikas of other posters.

You referred to Tourmaline as a 'tout'. Tout is not an abbreviation of his handle as you well know being English - so, it was a direct and purposefully meant insult.

For all those who don't know - a 'tout' in English is - a low life creep who buy tickets at face value for sporting, musical or other events and then sells them at a huge mark up to those who genuinely want to see the match, musical event etc.

I have advised Tourmaline to contact the moderators to have you removed from this forum.

As you spend so much time on this thread, it can be safe to say that you have few friends, which does'nt surprise me at all.

You and others like you are pollutants. you are not interested in discussing ideas, thoughts or opinions on cables and you really need to get a life. If you actually have a wife and kids I feel sorry for them.

Jazz/PhilS/Fallen Angel and all the others - if you keep replying to his wind-ups he will keep posting. Just ignore him and the dark fairy will go away.

To all those with a genuine interest in all things audio - would'nt it be terrible if we all agreed on everything. By listening to other opinions, results of others experiences, those with open minds can gain a lot.

Here's my take on the whole cable thing - until 7 months ago I did'nt 'believe' that there was much to gain, if at all from buying, making other I/C or PC cables. All this changed when I made and used a homebrew design for a PC to use with my new h/amp - it was a shock, a revelation.

There are many who say that yes they can hear a difference with cables but it ai'nt much. Well that true for them but for me it was a huge difference, which set me on the road of experimenting with different metals - copper/silver/plated copper and the final frontier (for me) CCC - continuous cast copper. This last wire should be with me within a week or so. I have to say that the difference at the moment using mil. spec. silver/plated wire is incredible. CD is now really enjoyable to listen to. I have a clear opinion on the damage that using sheilding does to the audio signal, the only exception being phono lead-outs from a TT.

How do I come to try CCC because a particular Head-fier kept banging on about it. Having an open mind I have to try it, it's as simple as that.

When I have found out what is best for me - I will then buy a pair of Grover Huffman's I/Cs to compare. It may mean a rude awakening I don't know as living in rural Spain, there is simply no other audiophiles(music lovers) here. I am considered to be something from outer space as I make and use valve amps.

So to get positive - has anyone (dark fairies excepted) tried CCC - loved it, hated it, all genuine opinions welcome. Also have others experimented with using/not using sheilding on cables.
post #177 of 313
2/24/07 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
yes i am also very curious to see the result of such a test. i can put together some exotic vacuum-contained silver cables or maybe try to borrow one from someone. they have very low inductance but high capacitance. unfortunately, people say my test is flawed and have their own proposals, but nobody can agree on a test proposal so these meetings are impossible to organize. if i can just obtain these exotic cables and hear a difference for myself, i can send them over to you for you to try.
Cotdt do that then send (i'll pay postage). We can go from there I have enough cables to try with too. Great and as the original poster lets continue in this vain. This is a good positive way forward. Can anyone get to Cot meet?
post #178 of 313
2/24/07 at 7:35am
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...**+water&hl=en

I posted this in general discussion but i stumbled upon this thread and it seems to fit...

Look at all these perceived differences these people have when the water suddenly has a nice label on it. Its almost like theyre brains are MAKING ALL OF IT UP!

Oh my-that cant be!



Edit: Oh and another thing, they use words to describe the water that dont make sense!

"This cable makes things sound chalky and the highs tend to be edgy and sharp like the fine tip of a knife, the mids are a bit suffocated like theyre being drowned underwater or possibly in some type of fabric of some sort... Overrall the cable tended to be crunchy!"

I dont know how to take most cable reviews seriously when they use such silly language (although a lot of people use this type of language when theyre reviewing ANY audio product... not just cables)
post #179 of 313
2/24/07 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Stuart View Post
This last wire should be with me within a week or so. I have to say that the difference at the moment using mil. spec. silver/plated wire is incredible.
Hi Black Stuart, I do enjoy your posts.

I also have some mil. spec. silver/plated 10 gauge wire en route to me. I've been trying various bargain priced cables lately with my substituting Belden 5T00UP with, received in the mail yesterday, Anti-cables. (Having sold three pair of PS Audio speaker cables I was mighty impressed with the Belden bare wire at 50 cents a foot but now the anti-cable seems expensive at $5 a foot-haha).

This solid-core copper wire is certainly different sounding based only on my 30 minute old memory of the Belden. Different enough to seem both quite superior in clarity yet a bit weird in being a little disorienting. No proof but some numbers, which unfortunately are Greek to me. I guess I need another thread.

5T00UP
* 2 mohm/ft loop resistance
* 0.16uH/ft Inductance
* 25pf/ft Capacitance

Anti-cable
* Resistance = 0.00318 Ohms/foot run
* Inductance = 0.82uH/foot run
* Capacitance = 0.002nF/foot run
post #180 of 313
2/24/07 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gotchaforce View Post
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...**+water&hl=en

I posted this in general discussion but i stumbled upon this thread and it seems to fit...

Look at all these perceived differences these people have when the water suddenly has a nice label on it. Its almost like theyre brains are MAKING ALL OF IT UP!

Oh my-that cant be!
No time to look yet but the event as you describe it is so true.

I like water in blue bottles myself.
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