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post #16 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
Consider the validity of an argument that has to resort to condescention... "Well, if you can't hear a difference, your ears are ignorant." ...to make a point.

If cables made a real difference, there wouldn't be an argument. There would be clear and convincing evidence. The only evidence I see in the arguments made in the defense of high end cables is that they seem to function as an ego boost of some sort. That's fine for some folks, but my self worth is invested in things other than stereo systems, cars and designer clothing.

See ya
Steve
The only defensive action I see is your vehement action to defend and justify your inability to hear the difference.
Relax. Nobody is atacking you.
Your quest for Ultimate Fidelity is possibly a lot easier than for those who do hear a difference.
post #17 of 313
The human perceptual system is subject to a lot of faults, and is easy to fool. Just start asking people what "white" is if you want to find out how many different approaches there are.

A/B testing is pretty good at finding things that sound different. Whether one is better than the other is another question, as we quickly become adapted to whatever the current standard is, and then fatigue sets in.

Perception is interesting. I learned a lot when I started processing images for display on the Web. I do sand sculpture and usually shoot a series of pictures as I walk around it. You'd think that with the same sun illuminating the same scene, with all photos taken within a few minutes, there'd be no difference between them. Each image was different, though. The color balance varied slightly from one to the next, and in trying to get them all to look the same I basically just ended up confusing myself as to what "white" really was. My eyes got tired.

Perception is fascinating. You can't pin it down, but somewhere in the gestalt of human experience is an indication of difference. It takes time to develop, or perhaps a surprise. You've listened to one system for a long time so have a good model of what it sounds like, and then you change something. It's different... but better? You have to go with feeling. Does the new item make you want to listen to more music? Does it bring you a sense of wonder that's hard to describe but quite clear to you? Justifying purchase of audio gear is in the ears of the beholder. If you can hear the difference between cables, that's great. Sensitivity is an underappreciated thing in our culture.
post #18 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Chaos View Post
The human perceptual system is subject to a lot of faults, and is easy to fool. Just start asking people what "white" is if you want to find out how many different approaches there are.

A/B testing is pretty good at finding things that sound different. Whether one is better than the other is another question, as we quickly become adapted to whatever the current standard is, and then fatigue sets in.

Perception is interesting. I learned a lot when I started processing images for display on the Web. I do sand sculpture and usually shoot a series of pictures as I walk around it. You'd think that with the same sun illuminating the same scene, with all photos taken within a few minutes, there'd be no difference between them. Each image was different, though. The color balance varied slightly from one to the next, and in trying to get them all to look the same I basically just ended up confusing myself as to what "white" really was. My eyes got tired.

Perception is fascinating. You can't pin it down, but somewhere in the gestalt of human experience is an indication of difference. It takes time to develop, or perhaps a surprise. You've listened to one system for a long time so have a good model of what it sounds like, and then you change something. It's different... but better? You have to go with feeling. Does the new item make you want to listen to more music? Does it bring you a sense of wonder that's hard to describe but quite clear to you? Justifying purchase of audio gear is in the ears of the beholder. If you can hear the difference between cables, that's great. Sensitivity is an underappreciated thing in our culture.
Well said.
See sig.
post #19 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Chaos View Post
Sensitivity is an underappreciated thing in our culture.
Well said!

On this background the Head-Fi forum is sort of a reservation for people who give room to their senses instead of worshipping measuring values and only using the left brain half.
.
post #20 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Does anyone have real proof that cables actually make any real differences (no brainer) I've tried a few and not really heard anything (when being honest). These include stefan audioart, russ andrews, RnB, Cardas, QED, etc, etc.
I think the operative phrase from your question is "real proof". The answer is an unqualified no. None of the sonic superiority advertising claims can be proven.

Example: One of the finest amplifiers made today, Perreaux, does not come with a fancy power cord. If it made a difference, they would not willfully commit marketing suicide by knowingly degrading the performance of their amplifier by equipping the unit with an inadequate power cord so the customer could have a bad impression straight out of the box.

Secondly, most recordings made today use interconnects, cables and wiring that an audiophile would consider barely acceptable, if at all.

Let me also add that unlike the visual rememberences, sonic rememberences are, at best, fleeting and incomplete.

You can easily remember and construct every detail of the faces of the people in your life, however when it comes to your favorite song, the same memories just are not there.
post #21 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
If cables made a real difference, there wouldn't be an argument. There would be clear and convincing evidence. The only evidence I see in the arguments made in the defense of high end cables is that they seem to function as an ego boost of some sort.
Man, what a load of hooey. You've outdone yourself with this one.
post #22 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5 View Post
ILet me also add that unlike the visual rememberences, sonic rememberences are, at best, fleeting and incomplete.

You can easily remember and construct every detail of the faces of the people in your life, however when it comes to your favorite song, the same memories just are not there.
I disagree with this completely. My experience, frankly, is quite the opposite. Perhaps people have different abilities in this area, like in many areas.
post #23 of 313
I have a CD changer and a very high end CD player that has been modded. I have a cheap headphone amp and a high end headphone amp made by Singlepower. I have some krappy do it yourself cables and some pretty decent aftermarket cables. I have no scientific "proof" that the modded CD player sounds better than the CD changer, that the SP amp sounds better than the cheap headphone amp, or that the aftermarket cables sound better than the cheap DIY cables.

However, if you put the components together as a system, you would have to be deaf to think they sound the same. And the high end system sounds better in every aspect. But, again, there is no "proof" of this.
post #24 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5 View Post
Example: One of the finest amplifiers made today, Perreaux, does not come with a fancy power cord. If it made a difference, they would not willfully commit marketing suicide by knowingly degrading the performance of their amplifier by equipping the unit with an inadequate power cord so the customer could have a bad impression straight out of the box.
Your logic is not only faulty, it's refuted by many other examples that one can find with other products. For example, why doesn't every automobile come standard with the best possible tires?
post #25 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
I disagree with this completely. My experience, frankly, is quite the opposite. Perhaps people have different abilities in this area, like in many areas.
I have a friend who builds guitars and can identify any note played or anything that sounds like a note from non musical instruments. Pretty amazing guy and you are light years ahead of him.

Campbell Guitars
post #26 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5 View Post
I have a friend who builds guitars and can identify any note played or anything that sounds like a note from non musical instruments. Pretty amazing guy and you are light years ahead of him.
No, I'm sure I'm not. But we're talking about apples and oranges.
post #27 of 313
If the OP is talking about the differences in cable in terms of end SQ, a dummy-proof way is to have an ALO Bling Bling and ALO Jumbo Cryo.

It is very obvious how the BB "constricts" the sound, and esp. with metal (Tool), heavy passages on the track sound like a car wreck, but with the Jumbo Cryo, it's like having super-huge bandwidth; there is now enough room and then some for any instrument to be clearly and distinctly heard.

As for cables being upgraded last...I guess that works. But IMHO it also depends on what the cab;e will be used for. I had an iPod - BB - Hornet - K701, and guess which one was killing my system?

I'll give you one guess.
post #28 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieDvd View Post
YES.
Remove cables entirely - no sound
Add cables - sound
That reasoning is flawed. The same would apply to the following: Can differences be perceived when playing two identical original CDs?
Remove CDs entirely - no sound
Play CDs - sound
Therefore: Differences between original CDs can be heard.

With respect to blind testing people need to be skeptic enough about those alleged tests. It is really very difficult to carry out blind tests properly, needless to say double blind tests, with sufficient rigurosity and sufficient samples so as to make the results truly statistically significant and valid.
post #29 of 313
In my relative infancy as an audiophile I've found cables to make a difference in that I noticed a significant tightness to the overall sound when I switched from no-brand interconnects to Blue Jeans Cable.

I hope I never discover that expensive cables make a difference. For now I'm quite content to upgrade other parts of my system first.
post #30 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
That reasoning is flawed. The same would apply to the following: Can differences be perceived when playing two identical original CDs?
Remove CDs entirely - no sound
Play CDs - sound
Therefore: Differences between original CDs can be heard.
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