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post #121 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5 View Post
Dictionary

au·di·o·phil·i·a (ô'dē-ə-fĭl'ē-ə)
n.

A mystical religion constructed to victimize the benighted.

Encyclopedia

A religion based on one-upsmanship in the expenditure for audio components, much like a tax on ignorance. These components then become objects of supplication for imagined sonic superiority, where the pursuit of sound fidelity is completely disassociated from the love of music.
Why do you have to go out of your way and take such efforts just to insult people?
post #122 of 313
I'm not understanding something in this thread about proof.

Reano:
You want "proof" that 2 cables sound differently. There is measurable proof that copper cables have different resistance to silver cables. There is also measurable proof that different sizes and guages of cables have different capacitance.

Is this proof that it "sounds" different? If yes, then you have your proof. If no and this scientific measurement does not measure how a cable "sounds", then no other scientific measurement can "prove" that 2 cable "sound" different. I don't know of any device that measures what a cable "sounds" like. There are devices that test for how fast electricity travels, amount of current, things like that, but nothing to test how things "sound".

The exactly same thing can be said for 2 pairs of headphones or 2 amplifiers. Sure, we have current ratings and voltage swings, but are those actual measurements of "sound", NO! Of course not, so how can you prove that 2 amplifiers "sound" different? You can't in the traditional measurement way. Don't bother with the whole, well this one has a flat response from 10Hz - 30KHz and the other is 12Hz to 25Khz. You can take the almost any high-end and have VERY similar frequency response graphs.

So the main thing I'm trying to get at is a simple: Can you hear the difference between 2 pairs of headphones? Can you prove other than saying "Yes, I hear a difference"? This is the way I feel about different cables in my system. I can hear a difference, and in hearing, so I can say that my "hearing" is my measuring instrument that proves to me that they "sound" different.

Hope that clarifies how I feel about the subject, and I do believe that everybody should be using this method. How something "sounds" can only be proven using the appropriate method of "hearing", why not try it? If your "hearing" test proves one way or another, you'll have all the proof you need.
post #123 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
You said you weren't really looking for serious/rigurous proof or research about perceived differences, you just were curious about anecdotical experiences for your own "reality check". Many such anecdotical experiences are documented in these forums already (as well as in many other places online, by many people). Your persistent asking is more of a lazy attitude rather than a true researcher mode of operation. Why do you keep goading (and yes, you are goading like a little kid) choosing to not look for what's already there? Do you seriously think people will want to repeat in this thread of yours what they already wrote in their own threads?
You just made this up where I have said anecdotal experience, etc. rsa why respond if i am a little kid (here we go again?) <--------- zzzz always come down to the same.. please don't respond to me RSA I don't want you to now if you could kindly not reply I will be very happy as I can see you have nothing of benefit to say to me.
post #124 of 313
I haven't read all the recent posts in this thread as life is just too short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Thankyou eyeteeth I like your response. Keep it up
Keep what up? I may have similar thoughts to others but I'm not part of any group think nor team sports or posting for the seeming entertainment of an unknown person. Are your pals looking in and having a laugh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
If there is a significant difference, it would be easy to prove. Then the argument would move on to WHAT KIND of a difference.
I thought the same thing as you quite a while ago; if the differences were of consequence, there'd be no debate.

Personally, cables are below the threshold of meaningfulness or readily perceivable impact. When argued about, cables take on a worth all out of proportion to their value.

I had another demonstration of the significance of cabling last week. This is a bit roundabout. One benefit to selling stuff within a city is the number of guys who can drop by and pick up and of course there's often some minutes of audio small talk. One buyer of some isolation items was older (60?), very nice, said he'd been in the hobby for 30 years, was one of the few who knew of my ATC gear, asked he could come in for a listen and I said "sure". As my turntable was uncovered talk turned to vinyl and he stated the usual about its superiority to which I cued up Classic Records 200 gram Led Zep II and dropped the Barry Diament mastered original CD into the tray, had them play simultaneously and I switched back and forth with the remote. He stated he was confused as to which was which.

The point of the anecdote is that he couldn't distinguish vinyl from CD when each were done very well (mastering!) but cables can be very different sounding. (I was once similarly confused by a Clearaudio table/Graham Phantom arm and Simaudio CD player playing simultaneously).

I could wire up with just about anything and no one could identify what was being used nor would they be able to determine if the loom cost $50, $500 or $5,000.

Proof? The proof of the pudding is in the tasting and I've decided I'd rather move beyond cables and put my money and efforts into cake.
post #125 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
I'm not understanding something in this thread about proof.

Reano:
You want "proof" that 2 cables sound differently. There is measurable proof that copper cables have different resistance to silver cables. There is also measurable proof that different sizes and guages of cables have different capacitance.

Is this proof that it "sounds" different? If yes, then you have your proof. If no and this scientific measurement does not measure how a cable "sounds", then no other scientific measurement can "prove" that 2 cable "sound" different. I don't know of any device that measures what a cable "sounds" like. There are devices that test for how fast electricity travels, amount of current, things like that, but nothing to test how things "sound".

The exactly same thing can be said for 2 pairs of headphones or 2 amplifiers. Sure, we have current ratings and voltage swings, but are those actual measurements of "sound", NO! Of course not, so how can you prove that 2 amplifiers "sound" different? You can't in the traditional measurement way. Don't bother with the whole, well this one has a flat response from 10Hz - 30KHz and the other is 12Hz to 25Khz. You can take the almost any high-end and have VERY similar frequency response graphs.

So the main thing I'm trying to get at is a simple: Can you hear the difference between 2 pairs of headphones? Can you prove other than saying "Yes, I hear a difference"? This is the way I feel about different cables in my system. I can hear a difference, and in hearing, so I can say that my "hearing" is my measuring instrument that proves to me that they "sound" different.

Hope that clarifies how I feel about the subject, and I do believe that everybody should be using this method. How something "sounds" can only be proven using the appropriate method of "hearing", why not try it? If your "hearing" test proves one way or another, you'll have all the proof you need.
Fallen please read the threads I know copper, silver blah blah and the properties of metals Im a trained engineer (please read the thread). In fact I'm not going to continue to respond to this as you need to first go back and read what I said already.

Like I said before I'm now expecting the usual

1) Why you ridiculing us, why you goading us (even though I explained this time and again )
2) Oh can hear it, I have no proof I'm happy but nothing to show.

THis is all so funny. Some have given some good responses I have stated where and thanks for those. The rest why keep replying. This obviously is thread you don't like. As one says im a little kid another I don't want to be a true researcher, etc then why keep come back. I would truly be glad if you don't respond as I've stated what I'm after just give me one researched test with independent reviewers that could tell the difference in hearing, musically and that type of thing. PLEASE no more oooh there is a difference between copper and silver. Erm please take that to a children forum for science. I know that.
post #126 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
reano, let me see if I can clarify. I am not trying to argue with you or offend you, but we seem to be two ships passing in the night. I offer the following:

1. As an initial matter, let's assume we are not talking about cables that measure differently to the extent that most would say the differences in the measured parameters should be audible.

2. I do not have proof (and I don't know of any proof) that cables sound different if by "proof" you mean scientific or other evidence that is of a nature and quantity such that all reasonably objective people would be or should be convinced of the fact beyond a reasonable doubt (let's assume that is the standard for discussion purposes).

3. There is "evidence" that cables sound different. Such evidence includes the reports of many who have listened to cables and report hearing differences. This may not be persuasive evidence to you or others, and it may not be evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt the existence of the fact (i.e., "proof"), but it is evidence.

4. I have evidence that cables sound different in my system. It is based on what I have heard. Is this "proof" to me? Yes, it is, to the extent that I am convinced of the fact and am willing to incur the cost of the cable for the amount of improvement I hear. In other words, the fact is established for me with sufficient proof for me to incur a cost or take an action. Is what I consider "proof" to me sufficient proof for bigshot, mihm5, etc.? No. Is this "proof" of a nature and quantity that all reasonably objective people would be convinced of the fact? No. Will it be proof to you? I don't see how it could be, since what you hear in your system might be entirely different.

5. The fact that there is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt such that all reasonably objective people would be or should be convinced of the fact is something that I suspect you are fully aware of. Therefore, asking the question "is there proof," seems to be designed to start an argument. But perhaps we have not been fair to you and need to give you the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, the answer to the question, again, IMO is that there is no proof such that all reasonably objective people would be or should be convinced of the fact beyond a reasonable doubt.

6. The fact that there is currently no "proof" does not mean that the differences do not exist, as you know. Nor does it mean that there might eventually be proof. But if you are looking for proof at this time -- as I have defined it -- I don't think it exists.

Hope this helps clarify my points and advances the discussion.
Phils this is better and it clarify's your point and advance the discussion I understand more what you mean. THanks
post #127 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeteeth View Post
I cued up Classic Records 200 gram Led Zep II and dropped the Barry Diament mastered original CD into the tray,
I was being devilish when I did that and to put the fellas world back on it's former axis I played the Mercury Living Speakers Corner reissue of Janos Starker Bach: 6 Cello Suites. He was a nice guy.
post #128 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post
Just wondering:
What would proof bring you? You still won't hear the difference.
Why do you think people would want to convince you or persuade you (with what you call proof) to believe there is a difference to be heard? Especially when you start out by saying you can't hear it anyway, that seems like a lot of wasted effort....
Kee's I would say thanks but I really don't know why you think your post would be of any benefit. If you are interested please read my posts where I mention I would want to buy the cables, find out, etc (I am from the camp of cable city, zzzz). Kee's please no more if it's post like the above I would prefer that you argue against with your own links, documents, etc like some have done as at least I will read them, etc. Else like you say it's a lot of wasted effort....
post #129 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeteeth View Post
I was being devilish when I did that and to put the fellas world back on it's former axis I played the Mercury Living Speakers Corner reissue of Janos Starker Bach: 6 Cello Suites. He was a nice guy.
loler Nice one so you have access to some masters aye hehe. Also thanks for your responses appreciated

Hey I think I have 50 posts I'm able to go buy some cables in the for sale section lol but anything else you can add please do as I'll save the links etc and no this is not some prank with my mates looking in and laughing at the responses. It is not.....
post #130 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Fallen please read the threads I know copper, silver blah blah and the properties of metals Im a trained engineer (please read the thread). In fact I'm not going to continue to respond to this as you need to first go back and read what I said already.

Like I said before I'm now expecting the usual

1) Why you ridiculing us, why you goading us (even though I explained this time and again )
2) Oh can hear it, I have no proof I'm happy but nothing to show.

THis is all so funny. Some have given some good responses I have stated where and thanks for those. The rest why keep replying. This obviously is thread you don't like. As one says im a little kid another I don't want to be a true researcher, etc then why keep come back. I would truly be glad if you don't respond as I've stated what I'm after just give me one researched test with independent reviewers that could tell the difference in hearing, musically and that type of thing. PLEASE no more oooh there is a difference between copper and silver. Erm please take that to a children forum for science. I know that.
I'm sorry to see this thread go to such idiocy and without jumping to conclusions, post #129 throws me off (I hope not to see tons of For-Sale threads by you because that would just be asking for suspicion).

Seriously though, this should be a very simple to answer question.

AC signals (your "sound" waves) travel differently depending on the medium. Change the properties of the cable (or more precisely, cable pair - signal & ground), you change how the signal travels.
post #131 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
I'm sorry to see this thread go to such idiocy and without jumping to conclusions, post #129 throws me off (I hope not to see tons of For-Sale threads by you because that would just be asking for suspicion).

Seriously though, this should be a very simple to answer question.

AC signals (your "sound" waves) travel differently depending on the medium. Change the properties of the cable (or more precisely, cable pair - signal & ground), you change how the signal travels.
lol I said the for sale as a joke. I tend to buy more than I sell

Fallen I understand what you say about Ac signals. Have you heard any though that you could say though this is the one that you can definitely hear the difference with and if so, do you have the name of the brand etc, info like that? This is not being rude or anything just a polite question. (I'm tip toeing here).
post #132 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
I don't want you to now if you could kindly not reply I will be very happy as I can see you have nothing of benefit to say to me.
I may have something to say of benefit to some other members of the forum. Sorry for the bluntness, but who said I was writing in this particular thread just because I cared whether it would matter to you?

With respect to my alleged "making it up" of your request for anecdotical experiences related to perceiving differences in cables:

Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
I have searched the internet "Not just forums", hifi mag's who have an interest more than most, etc so now I come back to my point...... Which is to see if people on this forum (I also post on others as part of my serious search like avforums) have any thing they can offer as many have said they do indeed hear the difference.
And I quote that even though you had asked for "proof" (see your first post), then you reworded your request as above. If you don't like your latter version of whatever your request is as a "request for anecdotical experience", then fair enough, I don't mind your not admitting or clarifying whatever your intentions are with this thread.
post #133 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaavedra View Post
I may have something to say of benefit to some other members of the forum. Sorry for the bluntness, but who said I was writing in this particular thread just because I cared whether it would matter to you?

With respect to my alleged "making it up" of your request for anecdotical experiences related to perceiving differences in cables:



And I quote that even though you had asked for "proof" (see your first post), then you reworded your request as above. If you don't like your latter version of whatever your request is as a "request for anecdotical experience", then fair enough, I don't mind your not admitting or clarifying whatever your intentions are with this thread.
OK Hopefully others will get more from your post
post #134 of 313
I already mentioned that from the limited amount of cables that I heard, I really liked the Belden 89259 from HeartLand Cables for a very warm system and after experimenting A LOT with different silver wires, a slightly modified version of the Chris VenHaus fine silver IC using slightly larger guage wire and cotton rope instead of teflon tubing sounded the best simply because the detail in the music was brought out more. This was comparing to a few cheap cables, Monster cables, radioshack brands, and of course lots of silver plated copper, pure copper and pure silver DIY configurations.
post #135 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the same rating," but if cables make zero difference, and amps and cd players of the "same rating" make "very little difference," then we could put together multiple systems with different cables and different cd players and different amps and they would basically all sound the same --as long as we're using the same headphones -- right?
By same rating, I mean the same power rating for the amp and the same specs. If the line levels were balanced, they would sound very similar, yes.

See ya
Steve
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