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Any prove cables make a difference? - Page 8  

post #106 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
If you believe you hear the difference how do you know it's just not placebo effect?
A partial answer to this is supplied in my post above, where I referenced hearing a difference when I didn't even know I had replaced the cable. Others have had similar experiences, as reported in other threads.

In addition, preferring the cheaper cable to some extent undercuts the placebo notion. It doesn't absolutely refute it, I know, but typically the "placebo issue" is that people will prefer the more expensive, prettier cable. There are many reported instances of people preferring a cheaper cable to a more expensive one, in addition to my own.

Also, if you think cables are a waste of time and you don't expect to hear a difference, and you are trying a cable so you can point out to others what BS this whole thing is, and lo and behold, you hear a difference, that also tends to suggest (again it's not conclusive) that maybe it's not all placebo.

Finally, I'm not an idiot. I'm in a profession where I've been trained for 25 years to be skeptical about what people think they saw, say they heard, and other types of perceptual evidence. And I know the placebo issues. And yet I hear something very clearly. Could I be completely fooled? Perhaps. But I have evaluated what I heard, and given serious consideration to the placebo issue, and I am very confident of hearing the difference.
post #107 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
HI Phils to answer your point. There is 'proof' to the contrary. For some examples read through the posts with links. Proof's and is all about reproducibility.
No, there isn't. There is "evidence" to the contrary. There is a difference between "proof" and "evidence," and it's not just semantics.
post #108 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
Why should we be held accountable if you can't hear something.

But this insistence on "proof" does seem to be designed just to foster an argument. No offense, but that's the perception that you're creating with your comments.
I will first just answer the first sentence above. I'm not holding you accountable just don't respond to me. Hope you don't take offense.

2nd My insisting on proof, why not? What is wrong with that?

Erm you have a drug that clears cancer erm I'll buy it where's the proof, "erm I got none". "You have some wonder fuel that makes me drive 100 more to the gallon" erm where's the proof? "erm I got none"... you can see where I'm going with this. There is nothing wrong with me asking for proof or is there? Why is it wrong for me to ask for proof?

I don't want an argument? If someone (and I await, please watch and see) comes and says "here is cable ABC. Here is the report where they got 10 people and they did this blah, blah and it shows that this cable is discernable better than these."

Thats it end of post, good night, good luck, period. Fullstop. THE END. I'm outta here. No worries to me whatsoever. I WANT THE REPORT. Let me repeat. I WANT IT. and again. I'M AFTER THAT PROOF. Just one more time. I WOULD BE HAPPY IF I GOT THAT EVIDENCE. AND again Eichmann love them cables, RnB love them cables, QED love the stuff. Russ ANdrews bit prices but likeyour mains cables, ALO I'm looking....
post #109 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Phils do you really believe components don't sound better?
I do believe they sound different. But where's the "proof," i.e., not just "evidence" based on what people claim to hear, but incontrovertible "proof"?
post #110 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
No, there isn't. There is "evidence" to the contrary. There is a difference between "proof" and "evidence," and it's not just semantics.
Phils I'm not going to desend into that I'm not going to pick people up on their use of exact terms, spelling, grammar, what Creek root word means what, etc. You have said your not an idiot and that you have experience, etc. I am assuming you are using it when reading my posts. I'm typing fast to respond. I'm hoping you 'know' what I'm saying. I have repeated things a few times.
post #111 of 313

It's a Disease, I Looked It Up!

Dictionary

au·di·o·phil·i·a (ô'dē-ə-fĭl'ē-ə)
n.

A mystical religion constructed to victimize the benighted.

Encyclopedia

A religion based on one-upsmanship in the expenditure for audio components, much like a tax on ignorance. These components then become objects of supplication for imagined sonic superiority, where the pursuit of sound fidelity is completely disassociated from the love of music.

Examples



Sonoran Plateau Interconnect cables. Single-ended (RCA) terminated, MicroBearing filled. These are the top-of-the-line Sonoran Plateau interconnect cables. All copper conductors, VDH RCA connectors. Proprietary directional shielding, MicroBearing fill, heavy duty construction with excellent strain reliefs. Extremely low noise floor, organic detail, neutral frequency balance, and very musical. Not etched or dry or analytical. A superb cable that competes with many cables costing much more. Get the high-end sound you are looking for, without the high cost. Works great with tube or solid state components. Definitely a "reference grade" cable. $550



New ultra high performance Purist Audio Design Opis Ferox interconnect in single ended RCA configuration. $1852.50



New ultra high performance Purist Audio Design Opis Ferox Bi-Wire speaker cable with spade lug terminations. $3029
post #112 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS View Post
I do believe they sound different. But where's the "proof," i.e., not just "evidence" based on what people claim to hear, but incontrovertible "proof"?
For this as with my previous statement. What would you see as proof for you? A basic mission 32i speaker vs B&W nautilus speaker 800D in a room with what 10 people? What exactly? Erm they bring their own music and see which will sound better? I'm laughing as I write this? Are you just saying this to me to catch me out? Huh if you want the evidence for this and are serious give more address and I'll post some of my hifi reviews (like this) independent, etc different people. Now I am asking for the same can you find me that article, paper or whatever with this for cables? Thats all I'm after where it was proven. PHil if you are going down route of what is proof this is not a legal thesis and you are way above me for this and it would be best that that is examined on a legal forum. I have stated the type of evidence I would accept. Got any? Why am I getting peoples backs up? It's just a simple question really. Some have said I don't have any but I'm happy with my choice and I say good luck to you. No worries but the post was not "who is happy with their choice of cable".
post #113 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5 View Post
Dictionary

au·di·o·phil·i·a (ô'dē-ə-fĭl'ē-ə)
n.

A mystical religion constructed to victimize the benighted.

Encyclopedia

A religion based on one-upsmanship in the expenditure for audio components, much like a tax on ignorance. These components then become objects of supplication for imagined sonic superiority but virtually never for enjoyment of recorded musical performances.

Examples

Sonoran Plateau Interconnect cables. Single-ended (RCA) terminated, MicroBearing filled. These are the top-of-the-line Sonoran Plateau interconnect cables. All copper conductors, VDH RCA connectors. Proprietary directional shielding, MicroBearing fill, heavy duty construction with excellent strain reliefs. Extremely low noise floor, organic detail, neutral frequency balance, and very musical. Not etched or dry or analytical. A superb cable that competes with many cables costing much more. Get the high-end sound you are looking for, without the high cost. Works great with tube or solid state components. Definitely a "reference grade" cable. [h4] $550 [/h4]
Don't think you should post that stuff really, it is funny but I can see how some people would find it offensive
post #114 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
...What would you see as proof for you? A basic mission 32i speaker vs B&W nautilus speaker 800D in a room with what 10 people? What exactly? Erm they bring their own music and see which will sound better?
Wow, I didn't think you would so easily be satisfied. So then: All of my audiophile friends hear differences in cables.

I'm glad to have finally been of help for you.
.
post #115 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
Wow, I didn't think you would so easily be satisfied. So then: All of my audiophile friends hear differences in cables.

I'm glad to have finally been of help for you.
.
Oh Jazz .... Yes your contribution has (shall I say) been entertaining. People get their backs up so easy. Guess you have no more to offer

To others just in case you haven't read I'm not here to goad but to see if there are reports, evidence, proof that kind of things like blind tests, etc that show the discernible difference (audible, hearing, musically .... I'm trying to be thorough....) between different cables like interconnects and the like.
post #116 of 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
To others just in case you haven't read I'm not here to goad but to see if there are reports, evidence, proof that kind of things like blind tests, etc that show the discernible difference (audible, hearing, musically .... I'm trying to be thorough....) between different cables like interconnects and the like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reano View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
Consider the validity of an argument that has to resort to condescention... "Well, if you can't hear a difference, your ears are ignorant." ...to make a point.

If cables made a real difference, there wouldn't be an argument. There would be clear and convincing evidence. The only evidence I see in the arguments made in the defense of high end cables is that they seem to function as an ego boost of some sort. That's fine for some folks, but my self worth is invested in things other than stereo systems, cars and designer clothing.
Hallelujah. Steve spot on.
Just to show how consistent you are when it comes to rate off-topic posts...
.
post #117 of 313
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ View Post
Just to show how consistent you are when it comes to rate off-topic posts...
.
Thank you for this Jazz ... I bet my spelling isn't always correct to
post #118 of 313
You said you weren't really looking for serious/rigurous proof or research about perceived differences, you just were curious about anecdotical experiences for your own "reality check". Many such anecdotical experiences are documented in these forums already (as well as in many other places online, by many people). Your persistent asking is more of a lazy attitude rather than a true researcher mode of operation. Why do you keep goading (and yes, you are goading like a little kid) choosing to not look for what's already there? Do you seriously think people will want to repeat in this thread of yours what they already wrote in their own threads?
post #119 of 313
reano, let me see if I can clarify. I am not trying to argue with you or offend you, but we seem to be two ships passing in the night. I offer the following:

1. As an initial matter, let's assume we are not talking about cables that measure differently to the extent that most would say the differences in the measured parameters should be audible.

2. I do not have proof (and I don't know of any proof) that cables sound different if by "proof" you mean scientific or other evidence that is of a nature and quantity such that all reasonably objective people would be or should be convinced of the fact beyond a reasonable doubt (let's assume that is the standard for discussion purposes).

3. There is "evidence" that cables sound different. Such evidence includes the reports of many who have listened to cables and report hearing differences. This may not be persuasive evidence to you or others, and it may not be evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt the existence of the fact (i.e., "proof"), but it is evidence.

4. I have evidence that cables sound different in my system. It is based on what I have heard. Is this "proof" to me? Yes, it is, to the extent that I am convinced of the fact and am willing to incur the cost of the cable for the amount of improvement I hear. In other words, the fact is established for me with sufficient proof for me to incur a cost or take an action. Is what I consider "proof" to me sufficient proof for bigshot, mihm5, etc.? No. Is this "proof" of a nature and quantity that all reasonably objective people would be convinced of the fact? No. Will it be proof to you? I don't see how it could be, since what you hear in your system might be entirely different.

5. The fact that there is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt such that all reasonably objective people would be or should be convinced of the fact is something that I suspect you are fully aware of. Therefore, asking the question "is there proof," seems to be designed to start an argument. But perhaps we have not been fair to you and need to give you the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, the answer to the question, again, IMO is that there is no proof such that all reasonably objective people would be or should be convinced of the fact beyond a reasonable doubt.

6. The fact that there is currently no "proof" does not mean that the differences do not exist, as you know. Nor does it mean that there might eventually be proof. But if you are looking for proof at this time -- as I have defined it -- I don't think it exists.

Hope this helps clarify my points and advances the discussion.
post #120 of 313
Just wondering:
What would proof bring you? You still won't hear the difference.
Why do you think people would want to convince you or persuade you (with what you call proof) to believe there is a difference to be heard? Especially when you start out by saying you can't hear it anyway, that seems like a lot of wasted effort....
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