The Joyce Hatto Hoax
Feb 18, 2007 at 8:26 PM Post #16 of 61
David Hurwitz has weighed in on the matter today in a 2 part article that makes very interesting reading.

From Part 2:

We also should not forget that somewhere in this mess there is, apparently, the very human story of a career cut short, a struggle with a terminal illness, and a loving husband who lost his wife--unless that turns out to be nonsense as well. Robert von Bahr of BIS records captured the human dimension very sensitively when he told me: “If it is his love for his wife that was the reason behind this, I for one am not inclined to press charges.”

True love as a justification for fraud? My goodness, David! Who would have suspected you are such a romantic!
 
Feb 18, 2007 at 9:44 PM Post #18 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This makes my day! Thank you Bunnyears.


Masolino,

Let us know what they are saying about this in jolly olde England!
 
Feb 18, 2007 at 9:53 PM Post #19 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif
“If it is his love for his wife that was the reason behind this, I for one am not inclined to press charges.”


I'm guessing the Hatto estate, Mr. Coupe, and the Concert Artists label have not made a lot of money of this scam. You can bet that if Universal or Warner were the label involved, and millions of dollars were stolen from Bis and performers like Simon and Bronfman, Bis would not be so magnanimous.

Regardless, there will be a lot of disgorging of profits happening in the near future. Copyright laws in the US and the UK are fairly stringent. There will likely be lawsuits by other labels, other performers, orchestras. Anybody that has ever purchased a Hatto CD has a slam-dunk class action.

I am very curious to know whose Beethoven and Mozart piano sonatas were used. Hopefully we will learn this soon.
 
Feb 18, 2007 at 10:21 PM Post #20 of 61
From what I've heard so far, the stolen recordings were from less well known performers (except for the Bronfman R2 PC).
Even so, it would seem that some reviewers need to use double blinded listening. The artist's "Brand name" can color the sound as much as an interconnect's!
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 1:24 AM Post #21 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm guessing the Hatto estate, Mr. Coupe, and the Concert Artists label have not made a lot of money of this scam. You can bet that if Universal or Warner were the label involved, and millions of dollars were stolen from Bis and performers like Simon and Bronfman, Bis would not be so magnanimous.

Regardless, there will be a lot of disgorging of profits happening in the near future. Copyright laws in the US and the UK are fairly stringent. There will likely be lawsuits by other labels, other performers, orchestras. Anybody that has ever purchased a Hatto CD has a slam-dunk class action.

I am very curious to know whose Beethoven and Mozart piano sonatas were used. Hopefully we will learn this soon.


Actually, at this point, I'll bet that eventually all of the record companies will join in suing Barrington-Coupe and Concert Artist/Fidelio recordings. It was too easy to put together the fraudulent recordings and it is only because so many different recordings were attributed to Hatto that raised the suspicions on the net. The recording companies are so jealous of their rights, I don't see how they can let anyone get away with something like this without going for extreme punitive damages as it's a threat to every company out there. I can't see DG letting something like this slide or EMI. Bis is a small label that apparently has trouble recouping the costs of their records so they are reluctant to engage on such a legal battle. That's also why Barrington-Coupe probably only plagiarized from the small independent labels that struggle to stay alive.
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 3:56 AM Post #22 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Masolino,

Let us know what they are saying about this in jolly olde England!


I will go check the local classical cd stores to see whether they still
display recordings "by Joyce Hatto."
plainface.gif


The Brits must have seen it (or variations thereof) many times.
From the Robin Hood legend to classic Ealing comedies such as the
original "Ladykillers" or "Lavender Hill Mob," there seems to be a
tradition of depicting loveable rogues who don't mind committing
small-time crimes while also having a bit of fun on the side. It's all quite
harmless anyway, and the duped richly deserve it.
very_evil_smiley.gif
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 4:26 AM Post #23 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I was chatting with one of the guys doing the legwork to track all the frauds down in my office today, and he said that they are also tracking down reviews of Hatto's forgeries and comparing them to the reviews of the legitimate release of the same recording by the same reviewers. You can bet that there are going to be plenty of authorities in classical music journalism that are going to be eating crow soon.

See ya
Steve


This is the angle that I'm the most interested in!
biggrin.gif
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 5:15 AM Post #24 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by daycart1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
From what I've heard so far, the stolen recordings were from less well known performers (except for the Bronfman R2 PC).


And the Brahms Piano concerto 2 by Ashkenazy/Haitink (Decca).

Up to now, only 9 of her 100+ releases on the Concert Artists label have been identified as fakes. Maybe all of them are. Maybe she hasn't played at all since her retirement from the concert scene. Why would somebody take the risk to add stolen recordings to her discography when she was already releasing dozens of her own performances?

I'm a classical fan, but I had never heard of Hatto until now. It looks like she was a phenomenon on the british scene only. What a disaster for the critics and publications involved. Although on a lighter scale (this is "only" art after all), it is similar to the fake Hitler diaries that fooled a popular german magazine in the 80's.
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 5:39 AM Post #25 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I will go check the local classical cd stores to see whether they still
display recordings "by Joyce Hatto."
plainface.gif


The Brits must have seen it (or variations thereof) many times.
From the Robin Hood legend to classic Ealing comedies such as the
original "Ladykillers" or "Lavender Hill Mob," there seems to be a
tradition of depicting loveable rogues who don't mind committing
small-time crimes while also having a bit of fun on the side. It's all quite
harmless anyway, and the duped richly deserve it.
very_evil_smiley.gif



For some reason, this is completely repugnant to me. Fraud is permissible as long as you are defrauding someone with style? It's alright to pick someone's pocket so long as you do it with a wink and a smile? Crime is permissible if the victim deserves to be victimized? Ick! I'm annoyed because it could have easily been my pocket being picked. All of those glowing reviews certainly piqued my imagination and the notion that one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century might have been a woman certainly gave me a glow. I'm so glad I was waiting for the recordings to go into wider distribution.
evil_smiley.gif


Btw, for anyone interested, the original Liszt Transcendental Études from which her recording was plagiarized is listed at Amazon. Anyone feel like taking the plunge and letting us know how wonderful the performance really is? It looks like amazon will take as long as Caiman to deliver this cd.

Availability: Usually ships within 2 to 5 weeks. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 5:46 AM Post #26 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And the Brahms Piano concerto 2 by Ashkenazy/Haitink (Decca).

Up to now, only 9 of her 100+ releases on the Concert Artists label have been identified as fakes. Maybe all of them are. Maybe she hasn't played at all since her retirement from the concert scene. Why would somebody take the risk to add stolen recordings to her discography when she was already releasing dozens of her own performances?

I'm a classical fan, but I had never heard of Hatto until now. It looks like she was a phenomenon on the british scene only. What a disaster for the critics and publications involved. Although on a lighter scale (this is "only" art after all), it is similar to the fake Hitler diaries that fooled a popular german magazine in the 80's.


From the Telegraph:

Andrew Rose, who runs the remastering firm Pristine Audio and who analysed the Hatto recordings, said: "There are a lot of critics and publications with egg on their faces.

"If you look at her biography and recording dates with a cynical eye, the whole thing starts to fall apart.

"She was almost a cult figure and people wanted to believe her story.

"The idea was that she had cancer and didn't want to be seen so her husband built a studio for her, but nobody explained how they managed to squeeze an entire orchestra in there.

"It's just jaw-dropping and so outrageous and audacious it's almost impossible to believe it's been done."

No wonder she didn't want to appear in public!
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 9:03 AM Post #27 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif
All of those glowing reviews certainly piqued my imagination and the notion that one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century might have been a woman certainly gave me a glow.


I thought Martha Argerich for one is among the greatest pianists of the 20th century...no?
confused.gif
Let's face it, Argerich also had cancer, but she didn't let men use her illness as a way to manipulate public imagination (or so it seems
wink.gif
).

ps. Now people are beginning to question whether Hatto actually also had cancer. It's very rare that someone could be in cancer treatment for thirty years without having been cured or dead before that.
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 9:22 AM Post #28 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Up to now, only 9 of her 100+ releases on the Concert Artists label have been identified as fakes. Maybe all of them are. Maybe she hasn't played at all since her retirement from the concert scene. Why would somebody take the risk to add stolen recordings to her discography when she was already releasing dozens of her own performances?


yes. if the other recordings are of comparably high quality performance/recording-wise then ALL become highly suspect.

Quote:

Although on a lighter scale (this is "only" art after all), it is similar to the fake Hitler diaries that fooled a popular german magazine in the 80's.


ironically, mussolini's diaries have just now been "discovered" as well
biggrin.gif
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 12:23 PM Post #29 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif
David Hurwitz has weighed in on the matter today in a 2 part article that makes very interesting reading.

From Part 2:

We also should not forget that somewhere in this mess there is, apparently, the very human story of a career cut short, a struggle with a terminal illness, and a loving husband who lost his wife--unless that turns out to be nonsense as well. Robert von Bahr of BIS records captured the human dimension very sensitively when he told me: “If it is his love for his wife that was the reason behind this, I for one am not inclined to press charges.”

True love as a justification for fraud? My goodness, David! Who would have suspected you are such a romantic!


Romantic or not, terminal illness is surely a good selling point. And I suspect some of the critics who have piled praises on her did so not because of "incentives", but because they too fell for this sentimental hype. Given her "recordings" were so hard to track down, you can hardly expect those who own them to pass a dispassionate judgment.

I too have not heard of the name Hatto until now. Apparently she did not rise to fame until last year?
 
Feb 19, 2007 at 2:44 PM Post #30 of 61
Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconP /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Romantic or not, terminal illness is surely a good selling point. And I suspect some of the critics who have piled praises on her did so not because of "incentives", but because they too fell for this sentimental hype. Given her "recordings" were so hard to track down, you can hardly expect those who own them to pass a dispassionate judgment.

I too have not heard of the name Hatto until now. Apparently she did not rise to fame until last year?


Sob stories are used to launch scams all the time. This story was probably just another scam. If Joyce Hatto was really ill, I'll bet it was with agoraphobia. That explains her reluctance to be seen by anyone other than her husband better than a 30 year struggle with cancer. Of course, selling the records of someone who was highly neurotic rather than suffering from a "dread disease" would have been a lot harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I thought Martha Argerich for one is among the greatest pianists of the 20th century...no?
confused.gif
Let's face it, Argerich also had cancer, but she didn't let men use her illness as a way to manipulate public imagination (or so it seems
wink.gif
).

ps. Now people are beginning to question whether Hatto actually also had cancer. It's very rare that someone could be in cancer treatment for thirty years without having been cured or dead before that.


Yes Martha is definitely one of the greats of the 20th and 21st centuries but her output was no where near as consistent and prolific as La Hatto. Moreover, she has always has had her detractors who hate her "pedal to the metal" style of play. Hatto had no detractors. It's so hard for a critic to knock someone who is in a real life and death struggle.
rolleyes.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)
Back
Top