Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Computer Audio › Benchmark DAC1 now available with USB
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Benchmark DAC1 now available with USB - Page 88

post #1306 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 View Post
Makes perfect sense. I will keep everything as is, as what you said makes sense. The digital signal is less attenuated, from what I have read the -20dB jumpers make no difference in sound, and the pots on the amp are almost at the noon position which improves tracking from what I have read. Since the run of cable from the DAC to the amp is only 2 feet, the decrease in signal coming from the DAC will have little to no EMI interference. Does this check out to you?
This sounds like a good setup. You also have the option of utilizing the DAC1's volume control and decreasing digital attenuation, but I doubt that will improve SNR much, if at all. I'd say you're good as you are...

Thanks,
Elias
Webisode #1 - 'Masters From Their Day' (w/ free download of the lossless track) @ www.MastersFromTheirDay.com ...Benchmark's new video series
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Benchmark - DAC-1 -HDR - Preamplifier / DAC / Headphone Amp SILVER
Benchmark - DAC-1 Black
Benchmark - DAC-1 PRE - Preamplifier / DAC / Headphone Amp
post #1307 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasGwinn View Post
karateKid,

In this case, the "output drivers" refer to the final stage that drives the XLR and RCA outputs. They do not apply to the HPA2 headphone amp, in this case.

Thanks,
Elias
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitesymphony View Post
I looked back through the thread, and I think you're right. Sorry about that.

But, I'm assuming that LM4562 is also used for the headphone amplifier portion, since it was mentioned that LM4562 would be superior to NE5532 for low-impedance headphones.
Is the 4562 any good for the hd650s? Aren't the 650s "high impedance" headphones?
post #1308 of 3015
Okay, since Elias is around, he can correct me if I'm wrong again.

The DAC1 PRE uses LM4562 everywhere.
The DAC1 USB uses LM4562 for the output drivers (the question is, which physical outputs are these?), NE5532 for everything else.
The DAC1 regular uses NE5532 everywhere.
post #1309 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarateKid View Post
Yeah well I just thought I could see what the fuss regarding XLR is all about. I mean isn't XLR directly off the DAC1 USB better than the HP-2 amp (the national opamp in the XLR vs the TI in the hp2)? Shouldn't it be better or good enough to use until I can get a balanced amp?
The XLR outputs on the DAC1 USB are not designed to drive headphones. The output impedance is too high (anything over 0.5 ohms is too high for driving headphones). The HPA2 headphone amp has <0.01 ohm output impedance. This is one reason it achieves ultra-low-distortion headphone amplification.

The 4562's are great line amps for the line outputs (XLR and RCA), but they are not meant to be headphone amplifiers. They will do better then the 5532's at that job, but still not ideal. The HPA2 headphone output driver is not a 5532...it is a BUF634, which is extremely well suited for driving the awkward load that headphones present.

There's a lot of discussion about balanced headphones earlier in this thread, but I'll give a brief description of the problems with balanced headphones...

ALL headphones have non-linear mechanical impedances (that is, the mass and shape of a speaker will resonate more at certain frequencies and much less at other frequencies). This means the physical build of the headphones (as well as other physical impedances, like your head and ears!) will try to override the electrical system (amplifier and speaker coil).

To create low-distortion headphone response, one must consider 'damping factor'. A high damping factor will control the response of the speaker, thus preventing the physical impedances from dictating frequency response. Damping factor is the ratio of speaker (load) impedance to amplifier (source) impedance. In other words, the best damping factor will result from a low source impedance. Again, the source impedance from the HPA2 is less then 0.01 ohms...as low as gets!!

Balanced headphone amps will double the source impedance of an unbalanced headphone amp. No matter how low the impedance of a balanced headphone amp, it could be half that much if it was unbalanced. This is one reason balanced headphone amps are not a good idea. (It should also be noted that the balanced output of the DAC1 / USB / PRE is 60 ohms or greater, depending on the attenuator settings).

Not only will the source impedance double with balanced headphone amplifiers, but the total distortion and noise of the amplifier will double as well!! Every output device (opamp, transistor, tube) creates some distortion and some noise. If there are two opamps or transistors or tubes driving each headphone speaker, twice as much distortion and noise will be added!!

The result of balanced headphones is less damping factor, more distortion, and more noise. Also, balanced headphones configurations offer no real benefits, to boot.

Feel free to use the XLR outputs of the DAC1 / USB / PRE for balanced headphone outputs (as mentioned above, the DAC1 USB and DAC1 PRE will do better then the DAC1 at this task, because of the 4562's). It won't damage anything to operate in this configuration. But, for the reasons above, I don't recommend it.

Thanks,
Elias
Webisode #1 - 'Masters From Their Day' (w/ free download of the lossless track) @ www.MastersFromTheirDay.com ...Benchmark's new video series
Reply
post #1310 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasGwinn View Post
The XLR outputs on the DAC1 USB are not designed to drive headphones. The output impedance is too high (anything over 0.5 ohms is too high for driving headphones). The HPA2 headphone amp has <0.01 ohm output impedance. This is one reason it achieves ultra-low-distortion headphone amplification.

The 4562's are great line amps for the line outputs (XLR and RCA), but they are not meant to be headphone amplifiers. They will do better then the 5532's at that job, but still not ideal. The HPA2 headphone output driver is not a 5532...it is a BUF634, which is extremely well suited for driving the awkward load that headphones present.

There's a lot of discussion about balanced headphones earlier in this thread, but I'll give a brief description of the problems with balanced headphones...

ALL headphones have non-linear mechanical impedances (that is, the mass and shape of a speaker will resonate more at certain frequencies and much less at other frequencies). This means the physical build of the headphones (as well as other physical impedances, like your head and ears!) will try to override the electrical system (amplifier and speaker coil).

To create low-distortion headphone response, one must consider 'damping factor'. A high damping factor will control the response of the speaker, thus preventing the physical impedances from dictating frequency response. Damping factor is the ratio of speaker (load) impedance to amplifier (source) impedance. In other words, the best damping factor will result from a low source impedance. Again, the source impedance from the HPA2 is less then 0.01 ohms...as low as gets!!

Balanced headphone amps will double the source impedance of an unbalanced headphone amp. No matter how low the impedance of a balanced headphone amp, it could be half that much if it was unbalanced. This is one reason balanced headphone amps are not a good idea. (It should also be noted that the balanced output of the DAC1 / USB / PRE is 60 ohms or greater, depending on the attenuator settings).

Not only will the source impedance double with balanced headphone amplifiers, but the total distortion and noise of the amplifier will double as well!! Every output device (opamp, transistor, tube) creates some distortion and some noise. If there are two opamps or transistors or tubes driving each headphone speaker, twice as much distortion and noise will be added!!

The result of balanced headphones is less damping factor, more distortion, and more noise. Also, balanced headphones configurations offer no real benefits, to boot.

Feel free to use the XLR outputs of the DAC1 / USB / PRE for balanced headphone outputs (as mentioned above, the DAC1 USB and DAC1 PRE will do better then the DAC1 at this task, because of the 4562's). It won't damage anything to operate in this configuration. But, for the reasons above, I don't recommend it.

Thanks,
Elias
I see, thank you very much for that very detailed explanation.

In this case, if a person doesn't have a dedicated amp to go with a DAC1, they might as well take the DAC1 Pre instead since it offers the better clearer less distorted 4562 opamp?
post #1311 of 3015
The LM4562 is not recommended for loads less than 600 ohms.
post #1312 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarateKid View Post
In this case, if a person doesn't have a dedicated amp to go with a DAC1, they might as well take the DAC1 Pre instead since it offers the better clearer less distorted 4562 opamp?
From Elias's message, it seems that the headphone output does not use the LM4562, it uses BUF634, which is even better for headphones than the LM4562. So, in that respect, all models of the DAC1 are equally good through the headphone output.
post #1313 of 3015
Thank you very much, Elias!
Only remains to see then, if the Leopard behaves like the Tiger...

And like the brake-in of DAC1 really is in my brain and not in the machine, my preference of VLC was perhaps broken-in by the posting you made last year. Presumptions are good reality-creators!

I've thought about one more thing: Are there different versions of DAC1 USB regarding firmware or software? And is it possible to upgrade DAC1 by downloading and installing new firmware/software?

Thanks! Joachim
post #1314 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terje View Post
I assume you have done a comparision between rca-rca and xlr-rca?
My thougts is that it is best to use xlr-xlr. If not possible, rca-rca is better. The same connection in both ends.
What do you lose by going XLR to RCA? I don't have many options besides reaching around and moving the cables when I want to switch from the Opera to the Wooaudio 6. Both amps do not have XLR input.
post #1315 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasGwinn View Post
Hello dspargo,

It's interesting that you ask this, as it is the topic of our next "Feedback" newsletter.

Poo's instructions are correct. To connect the XLR outputs to RCA inputs, you must have a cable that has a female XLR connector with pin-3 floating (not connected) and a male RCA on the other end.

If you buy this cable, double check to make sure pin-3 is floating...MAKE SURE IT IS NOT GROUNDED!! There is a possibility of damaging the DAC1 if you use an XLR output with pin-3 grounded for extended periods of time.

There are a few places you can buy these cables. We sell them (part#: 500-06902-000 and 500-06906-000 are 2' and 6' versions, respectively). But wherever you buy them, check and double-check to make sure pin-3 is floating.

Thanks,
Elias
Thanks Elias!
post #1316 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by dspargo View Post
What do you lose by going XLR to RCA?
Nothing.

XLR - RCA will sound the same as RCA - RCA if cabled correctly.

It is obviously different to an XLR - XLR connection, but that isn't what you are asking.
post #1317 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by dspargo View Post
What do you lose by going XLR to RCA? I don't have many options besides reaching around and moving the cables when I want to switch from the Opera to the Wooaudio 6. Both amps do not have XLR input.
XLR-to-RCA will be equivalent to RCA-to-RCA. Just remember to make sure the cable has pin-3 floating!

Thanks,
Elias
Webisode #1 - 'Masters From Their Day' (w/ free download of the lossless track) @ www.MastersFromTheirDay.com ...Benchmark's new video series
Reply
post #1318 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by little-endian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
As Elias has pointed out much of that will be filtered out by the DAC1 but in most cases I have found that the more there is at the beginning the more that is going to get through in the end.

Better off to use the USB I would think in this case.

Thanks
Gordon
From what I'm aware of, the jitter actually isn't filtered out at all but the oversampling ratio is varied instead to prevent buffer underruns or overflows

If the datasheets from Benchmark are correct - and I want to believe they are - then they have measured the effects of jitter by far more detailed than anyone is able to hear hence if they are telling the truth, there is nothing but the data which can change the sound quality.

@Elias: Since the output of the DAC1 is muted incredibly fast when no S/PDIF-signal is present anymore, I suppose that the used buffer has to be comparatively small. I'd be interested to know the exact size of it.
L-e, Gordon, et. al.,

With the AD1896 (the ASRC used in the UltraLock clocking system of Benchmark converters), the jitter of the incoming signal will not affect the conversion, it will merely (and inconsequentially) affect the amount of data in the input buffer between samples (as l-e correctly stated).

The speed of the Fin/Fout ratio updater of the ASRC will dictate the amount of jitter seen by the converter. The AD1896 has a fast start-up (higher jitter), but settles very quickly (~500ms) to a slower mode (low jitter). In the slower mode, the jitter is attenuated VERY effectively. Specifically, it begins rolling off at 1 Hz, and is lower then -100 dB at 1kHz. (All of this can be seen in the performance charts of the AD1896 ASRC: http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/...ets/AD1896.pdf)

The bottom line is that the effects of jitter is a constant, known quantity that is completely independent of the amount of incoming jitter. In other words, the incoming clock could have 0.05 UI of 15 kHz jitter or 12 UI of broadband jitter, and the amount of distortion will not change AT ALL!!! Pretty amazing... This is an important performance characteristic because it eliminates the differences between cable quality, cable lengths, environmental EMI, AC-induced signal noise, transmission methods (optical vs. electrical vs. USB), etc, etc, etc...

It should also be noted that the amount of jitter from the local on-board clock also affects the amount of jitter-induced distortion during conversion. This is why intelligent clock circuitry and board-layout is extremely important for low-distortion performance. All-in-all, for all levels of incoming jitter, the amplitude of jitter-induced artifacts of the DAC1 is ~-133 dB...well below the threshold of hearing. (btw, this performance spec has been verified by many reviewers...see John Atkinson's tests in Stereophile, for example).

L-e, the RAM in the AD1896 is 512 words per channel.

Thanks,
Elias
Webisode #1 - 'Masters From Their Day' (w/ free download of the lossless track) @ www.MastersFromTheirDay.com ...Benchmark's new video series
Reply
post #1319 of 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by poo View Post
Nothing.

XLR - RCA will sound the same as RCA - RCA if cabled correctly.

It is obviously different to an XLR - XLR connection, but that isn't what you are asking.
Gang,

One thing you can do to get the benefits of balanced connection into an RCA is use the Jensen Transformer series ISO-MAX.

WELCOME TO JENSEN TRANSFORMERS, INC.

I have used these on a number of large setups where you want one connection but have another.

In this case you could use an XLR cable to the ISO-MAX and then from there RCA into your pre/integrated setup.

Customers who want to use my USB dacs but want the computer as far away from their system have gone to this approach or in the case of the Cosecant (transformer output) is lift the ground.

Thanks
Gordon
post #1320 of 3015
Elias,

Quote:
The bottom line is that the effects of jitter is a constant, known quantity that is completely independent of the amount of incoming jitter. In other words, the incoming clock could have 0.05 UI of 15 kHz jitter or 12 UI of broadband jitter, and the amount of distortion will not change AT ALL!!! Pretty amazing... This is an important performance characteristic because it eliminates the differences between cable quality, cable lengths, environmental EMI, AC-induced signal noise, transmission methods (optical vs. electrical vs. USB), etc, etc, etc...
Several people as well as myself have looked at the AD1896 and found that actually it acts more like a filter to jitter than a brick wall.

In your case the intrinsic jitter of the TAS1020 is really pretty low and all that get's filtered out.

I am not familar with the AKM receiver that is in the Benchmark.

In out tests we used the Cirrus/Crystal receiver the CS8416. We would send it X amount and test the dac output for sidebands (PCM1794A). We found the output jitter from the AD1896 to filter in a pretty linear fashion. In all of our tests we used a 0.5ps jitter OSC at Fs*512 (incoming Fs so it's a direct multiple of 2, 4 upsampling) as the OSC into the AS1896. We also found that running very hs oscillators into the AD1896 to get 192K upsampling caused a pretty significant amount of intrinsic jitter. But again external gates are required for these speeds and the complexity of the design increase 5 fold.

~~~~~~~

But guys don't dwell on this, in 99% of the cases the Benchmark will remove the crap you guys are feeding it. You better off asking about system integration of the product, cable types, length, headphone questions and such.

Thanks
Gordon
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Computer Audio

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Benchmark - DAC-1 -HDR - Preamplifier / DAC / Headphone Amp SILVER
Benchmark - DAC-1 Black
Benchmark - DAC-1 PRE - Preamplifier / DAC / Headphone Amp
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Computer Audio › Benchmark DAC1 now available with USB