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Graphs and Charts: Use them or not??

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
When I bought my DT880 05s, I bought them because everybody on headfi seems to rave about them and puts them on top of the heap with the K701 and HD650. I had read all the reports from members on their experiences using the various headphones and how wonderful the synergy between their equipment and the phones had worked out. As you probably know, as do all others on this forum, this can be an enormous time-sink and you'll end up being in the same place in the end. You may narrow down the phones to three or four, but have no idea how this phone will sound with your source, cables, amp, recable, DACs, and whatever else is out there; all in a quest to have the end result, the headphones, sound the way you want them. And I think some people on this forum need to have their hearing checked and have had their headphones up wayyyy too loud over time. Many musicians have a hard time hearing from being on stage, and will argue about sound quality.

Getting used to an overly bright or harsh headphone can sometimes mean suffering from a temporary threshold shift of your hearing to the change in sound. (I've actually been calling this "Ear Burn In" and think it happens all the time with people on here) If your ears are fatigued, you should probably find a better suited phone to your hearing ability before you wipe it out, deaden it, or need more and more analytical/bright/colored phones. Come to think of it, do a lot of new headphone users complain about phones sounding to analytical before they get some time under some phones? Maybe its because they have good hearing early, and their EARS actually get burnt in? hmmm....

This has been on my mind for a while, as I think my DT880s are bright as hell, and I can't stand them. I don't need phones to be loud in the upper ranges to hear detail, and it doesn't need to be sharp and grainy to compensate for a lack of it either, which is why I generally like flat phones. If I would've looked at the graphs of the DT880s before I bought them, I would have seen that they're like 10db higher than the rest of the range. I would've chosen the K601 or K701 instead of these. I ended up depending on reviews from users who have an infinite number of system configurations which never offer truly objective assessments of phones, just how they sound on THEIR system. I'd like to find out how it will be on my system, and if data is available from a meter that can at least narrow down the frequency response or signature before I hear from people about how tubes vs. solid vs. cables, etc. etc., I'll more than likely be using that heavily in selecting my next pair of phones. Meters usually don't have personal tastes, opinions, comfort levels, and can be recalibrated before use, unlike the organic ear drum, which can be damaged and never fixed.

So, I like graphs and quantitative measuring tools, and in the end, we all end up complaining about extension, range, poor mixing, levels, etc., so why not take the tools/methods we use late in the game, and apply them early? I'm sure the builders of the phones use meters and find great value in their use, so why not do what they do? Use graphs and available data. It keeps it simple and extremely time efficient. I've seen people buy and trade all kinds of stuff on here, even buying a pair of phones on the lower end of a series, to get an idea of house sound before going up the top of the line, and sometimes going full circle based on system specific info people write on the forum. Too much dickering for me.

What's everybody else think???
post #2 of 19
There are problems associated with that. I use graphs when making purchases, but only as part of the research.

When reading graphs, and graphs alone, can you tell exactly how the phone would sound? I mean with experience, good study of physics and electronics, and understanding of workings of the ear, you can get a pretty good idea given that you get your hands on a graph that at least spans the frequency response on 20-20. And in the end, do you even know what your hearing is like in order to find a headphone that sounds great to it? I would not buy a grado based on graphs (i would not buy a grado at all, but lets not go there), because of the high frequencies, hell I was afraid to put sr60 on but I stuck into my bithead and listened - honestly not too bad comparing to what is described about how bright it can be. (and hd595 is how bright I ever want it to go).
Preference is much unpredictable just as how headphones are going to behave. And if you are going to bass it on numbers, should Sony mdr-sa5000 be your headphone of choice? 5-110 response.

So graphs in the end are nice but they don't provide the complete picture unless you know workings of your inner self and the physics of sound and electronics very thoroughly. But at that point you can make your own headphones.
post #3 of 19
I for one found the DT880 to be treble - bright. I am very sensitive to bright treble. Forward / aggressive (Grado) mids however do not bother me, and frankly I enjoy them. Any boost over ~5500Hz however and it makes my ears ring after 30-ish minutes of exposure.

I found the SA5k kind of the same way, but to a lesser degree.

I dont use graphs much at all.
post #4 of 19
Haha kramer, agreed on that one partly although my ears don't seem to be destroyed by brightness... Although big question back to graphs here again, what to do with recordings that were actually done well like most of those in Kramer's sig? DT880 is a nice headphone but actually that 5500 hz boost is exactly what would not sound good with them. There are so many factors that trying to do this numerically would be such a madness...
post #5 of 19
Too much text for my non-english brain to handle at once.




But DT880 doesnt have treble higher than bass!

http://72.30.186.56/babelfish/transl...a%2fdt880.html

http://www.headphone.com/products/he...mic-dt-880.php


But what makes it fatiguing for some people that there is a spike in treble. At 8-12Khz IIRC. EQ that spike a couple of db down and you have very flat headphone.

IIRC, average human hearing as a small dip somewhere in that range, so that spike is good to enhance details. But not everyones hearing is same, so for some people the spike can be what it is: spike! I guess you are one of these.
So, instead I guess Sennheisers would be more suitable for you? Instead of spike in that region, they have a dip! Or that V word.

VEIL!!!
post #6 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaloS View Post
Haha kramer, agreed on that one partly although my ears don't seem to be destroyed by brightness... Although big question back to graphs here again, what to do with recordings that were actually done well like most of those in Kramer's sig? DT880 is a nice headphone but actually that 5500 hz boost is exactly what would not sound good with them. There are so many factors that trying to do this numerically would be such a madness...
Well... amp/source upgrades are always an option. OP amp, tube rolling can go a long way too.
post #7 of 19
Well...thats what I am trying to get at kramer...numbers fail. =]

Wonder how dt880 would sound with a micro DAC...
post #8 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaloS View Post
Well...thats what I am trying to get at kramer...numbers fail. =]

Wonder how dt880 would sound with a micro DAC...
Yeah.... its always a good idea to keep system synnergy in mind when you read subjective opinions. Many times its poor synnergy rearing its ugly head.
post #9 of 19
Well that is where a good frequency graph of the source, the amp, and the headphone would be nice to have. Grab them, overlay on top of another and see which yields the curve you are looking for =]
post #10 of 19
Thread Starter 
Kramer,

What phones do you suggest then? You seem to get what I'm saying. I have my volume way down, and my ears ring (bad for ears) after listening. After looking at the graphs for the DT880, I saw the huge spike. I can appreciate how phones might be setup for different music, and I'm used to the sound signature of Bowers&Wilkens. I'm not sure what the charts say, but I love the delivery they have. Anything like this? I'm thinking AKG or maybe even AT's.
post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaloS View Post
There are problems associated with that. I use graphs when making purchases, but only as part of the research.
I would tend to agree. I use graphs as an entry point to researching headphones. I use them to get an idea of the characteristics of the cans, but by no means I would I decide on one can over the other based on the graphs. I find getting opinions from people who use them is usually some of the best information you can receive in deciding between one can or another.

ktogun -- if you are looking for a warmer sounding organic can, which in theory shouldn't give you that ringing, I would suggest the 650's. They have that warm organic sound; lushness!!! The 701's are more analytical than the 880's so I would suggest you stay away from them.
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktogun View Post
Kramer,

What phones do you suggest then? You seem to get what I'm saying. I have my volume way down, and my ears ring (bad for ears) after listening. After looking at the graphs for the DT880, I saw the huge spike. I can appreciate how phones might be setup for different music, and I'm used to the sound signature of Bowers&Wilkens. I'm not sure what the charts say, but I love the delivery they have. Anything like this? I'm thinking AKG or maybe even AT's.
Lets back up a little. What is your source? What are you amping those 880s with? They are certainly one of the more amp/source sensitive cans IMHO. I dont think you should give up on the 880 yet without at least considering an amp/source upgrade.

The DT880 CERTAINLY has some strengths going for it. VERY good soundstage, detail resolution, comfort... quite frankly destroy any comparably priced Grado.

Furthermore, if your source is harsh or bright... side-stepping to a Grado or AKG certainly will not alleviate that, and in some ways may be even worse than the DT880. You should note my DT880 comments are based on the OLDER model... NOT the current one. So... Im not sure what value they are... if any? In fact if your 880s are the newer ones, I should go back and delete my previous posts.
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaZa View Post
IIRC, average human hearing as a small dip somewhere in that range, so that spike is good to enhance details. But not everyones hearing is same, so for some people the spike can be what it is: spike! I guess you are one of these.
So, instead I guess Sennheisers would be more suitable for you? Instead of spike in that region, they have a dip! Or that V word.

VEIL!!!
That's correct, and I think this is what separates most of the DT 880 / HD 650 fans. Usually most people vastly prefer one over the other.

If you find yourself especially sensitive in that area, definitely try a Sennheiser. Something like the HD 595 or HD 650 would probably suit you very well!
post #14 of 19

since we're talking about graphs

I think the only thing a graph can tell you (assuming they were measured on the same equipment and everything) is how a headphone may be balanced: whether it's balanced overall, is tilted to the treble, recessed, or tilted towards the bass.



I'm in the Sennheiser camp, so I've never heard veil. Sennheisers do really well on systems that are clean and detailed. I don't know which version of the DT880 headroom is using here, but you can see some real treble spikes in the 880. It could be that huge dip in the treble that you're sensitive to. Sennheisers don't have as much as one, and AKGs have the biggest.

I also have found that a lot of the headphone's performance has to do with synergy, synergy syngergy. Probably the reason why headphone manufacturers elect not to be consistant is that sources always differ. So you can either try a HD650 or another source to bring out this recession that the 880 is having for you.
post #15 of 19
heh, the k701 bass response looks like it should be bassier than hd650, and it certainly does not seem so by the reviews...

Now I am really considering trying k701s in the future.
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