What is the value of historic recordings?

I'm afraid I disagree. Perhaps its because sound quality means so little to me, but I believe that without historical recordings we would lose the complete pictiure of an artist.

Consider:

Eugene Ormandy playing violin
Casals and Szell in the Dvorak B-Mnor Concerto
All of Enrico Caruso
Rachmoninov's own recordings.

These recordings don't have value for sound, or period playing. They have value because they show artists performing works that mean something to all of us. Maybe they recorded them again, maybe they didn't. If all of Oistrakh's work was in Stereo, that'd be great. But it isn't. and so to complete my picture of an artist and music that I love, I buy the mono stuff.

Buying historical stuff to have it is crap.

Buying historical stuff to love it is the reason it's there.

I think there are two things that are most important for enjoying historic recordings.

1) A historic recording is not a substitube for one in decent or better sound. It is a supplement that allows you to experience something specific that you are interested in, such as the work of a certain conductor, or what kind of performances were common in a certain time and place. I would not recommend owning a poorly recorded historic performance as your only copy of a piece of music. As you say, Bunny, the sound limitations can prevent us from hearing everything that was intended to be heard by the composer and performers, so I think it's important to have a recording that allows you to hear everything well, even if you don't like the performance or interpretation as much as your historic recording of choice. Sometimes, though, people always turn to a certain historic recording of a particular piece because, despite the poor sound, they have not found any other recording that provides them with as rewarding a realization of that music. But you can't know that until you try both historic and modern recordings.

2) Not to let a fondness for a certain historical conductor/performer or individual recording prevent you from giving more recent artists a chance. I think some people are too reverant to some "golden-age" figures, and that blinds them to brilliant present-day artists. For example, if someone decides that nobody will ever conduct Beethoven and Wagner as well as Furtwangler did, they are doing themselves a great injustic because they will no longer have an open mind to the countless musical geniuses that are still around today. It's a balancing act between recognizing the great musicians of the past and searching out the great ones of the present.

-Jay

The only time I would consider buying a historical performance is when the composer himself is conducting. With a revealing setup, the imperfections in old recordings (e.g. the hiss in Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue") are unbearable.

I have a few by Britten, and quite a few by modern composers like Adams, Lutoslawski, Penderecki, Glass, Goldschmidt, Tippett or Bryars, but DDD recordings probably don't count as historical performances.

If being an audiophile means ignoring Kathleen Ferrier, I give up.

The hiss on Kind of Blue (which was released in '59 and recorded in a studio on quality analog master tapes, so it's not even really in the 'historic' category)is pretty minor. If you can't listen past that much tape hiss, I don't know what to tell you.

Have you ever heard Schnabel's Beethoven?

-Jay

Bunnyears, you are one of my favorite posters and I have learned a good bit about opera from you, so pardon me when I say you are WAY OFF here!

I love old recordings, I have a bunch of those old Naxos historical opera recordings. They don't take the place of the new operas, but they have their own special place in my heart.

I find the old opera recordings (this only applies to opera and vocals, I have no use for other old recordings) to have a certain something that I don't think modern recordings have and that is the style the old singers used.

Now, I have no formal education about these matters, so I might get slammed for being way off here, but... I think those old singers sang with more IMMEDIACY than they do today. I don't think they were necessarily better singers, but they put their emotions into their songs in a way that they just don't do today. I would make the comparison with an analytic set of headphones (the new style) and fun headphones (the old).

I'm going to try to illustrate my point, but I don't know how to post an audio file. I'll make some links to amazon, and you can listen for yourself. I think if you bother to take the time, it will make my point.

Here are links to two CDs, both with the aria "Hochstes Vertraun hast du mir schon zu danken" from Lohengrin, the old sung by some guy named Herman Winkelmann, about whom I know nothing; and the new sung by Domingo on the Solti recording.

The old (track one):
http://www.amazon.com/Heldenten%C3%B...360257-6333257

The new (track six on disc four - you have to expand the track listings):
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Lohengr...6333257#disc_3

OK, now if you've bothered to find the tracks and listen to them, you're a dedicated person!

The first thing I notice between these two tracks is what sounds like the distance between the singers and their microphones - Winkelmann sounds to me like he's right in the room with you, his emotions are very overt, and he goes right ahead and hits the notes hard.

Domingo sounds very remote and smooth, but not like he's really there with you. Yes, he has a beautiful voice and he can pack a good deal of power into it, but it's distant - do you agree? He rolls into notes instead of "punching" them.

Listen to the big moment at "hoch über alle Fraun". At the word FRAUN, Winkelmann just hits it hard, he really lets the music lead the emotion with no coverup. Domingo kind of leads his voice up to the punch, but without any real pop.

Obviously, I'm just making up these words to match how it strikes me and those of you who are really educated about these things are probably cringing, but I wonder if some people out there hear it too?

I found Winkelmann's version much more moving. The sound quality is obviously primitive and I would say Domingo is a "better" singer, but I think Winkelmann is doing something more moving in this section.

I'm not trying to just pick on these two, I find this distinction common in old vs. new recordings.

I've gone on more than I meant to, so I'll just leave it at that, but if anyone has any opinions I'd be happy to hear them.

For those of you who made it this far, thanks!

You are one of my favorite posters as well, and just to let you know, I completely agree with you! I see no reason to listen to poorly recorded mono records from the '20s and '30s -- they lose much of the beauty that music offers.

i don't mind the quality as long as i know what's going on. however, i CANNOT stress how much i despise unbalanced orchestras and the like. i'm classically trained (tuba) and i can actually pick out nuances, and seriously, i don't care if something is historically important, i won't touch it if it's not perfect.

If you think that historical recordings can't have thrillingly vivid and lifelike sound, you've never heard a Caruso record played on a contemporary Victrola. The main problem with acoustic recordings is electronic playback. An acoustic record played back on an acoustic gramophone is an amazing experience.

See ya
Steve

Here are a couple of performances from the mid 1930s that you'd be hard pressed to match with modern recordings. Who sings AND acts out each word like this today?

Lotte Lehmann / Walter/ VPO 1935
Wagner: "Die Manner Sippe" Die Walkure
http://www.vintageip.com/records/VIP-OP-1002Trk12.mp3

Lauritz Melchior 1937
Wagner: "Hymn to Venus" Tannhauser
http://www.vintageip.com/records/VIP...01BonusTrk.mp3

See ya
Steve

Here's a sample of that...

Artur Schnabel Diabelli Variations XXI & XXII
http://www.vintageip.com/records/VIP-CL-1001Trk2.mp3

Eroica Variations VI, VII & VIII
http://www.vintageip.com/records/VIP-CL-1001Trk1.mp3

And here is Kathleen Ferrier...

Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice "Che faro senza Euridice?"
http://www.vintageip.com/records/VIP-OP-1005Trk22.mp3

See ya
Steve

The skill of artistic inerpretation is what a lot of people admire in early historic recordings.

I mean, a conductor/musician now can listen to 20 plus recordings of a single piece before coming up with a performance. Modern artists all listen to each other, we now have "reference" performances of how a piece should sound.

In these early recordings the artists often only had the written music and the interpretation was soley theirs, without many other influences. Even with poor sound quality, this is the value of these recordings.