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Sennheiser or Grado - Page 4

post #46 of 66
MacDEF: I think the bass is there on the HD600, but it is a bit diffuse, kinda difficult to pinpoint and lacks a bit of oomph. But this is likely due to the fact that the drivers are not right up against the ear as with a Grado.

How about this for an analogy: Grado sounds like each band is playing in a large plushly carpeted living room and HD600 sounds like each band is playing in a large gymnasium or empty auditorium.
post #47 of 66
I certainly wouldn't classify the SR325 as laid back in the upper mids and treble, they sound the opposite of that to me, so much so that I would never buy them. They have a lot more upper mid and treble than the RS-2, which I find much better balanced. The RS-2 and the MS-pros are much more expensive than the HD600; I'd consider them if it wasn't for the price. I've heard people say the RS-2 was much better than the RS-1, so although I haven't heard the RS-1 (I had a chance when I listened to the whole Grado lineup at a dealer but I just thought they were too much money for me to consider) I'm not too sure they're really very similar.

I don't think the HD600 has perfect bass but I don't have any major problem with it either. I think most people would agree they have a laid back sound which is different than the best Grados, AKGs, Sonys and Beyers. I have yet to hear a headphone that I consider to be very accurate in terms of frequency response, which is one reason I own several different kinds.
post #48 of 66
The headroom graphs follow exactly what I hear with the Grado SR-60, SR-80, SR-125, and SR-225, so I find it hard to believe that the graphs would all of a sudden become inaccurate with the higher models in the Grado series. The graphs also follow exactly what I hear with the HD600 and HD570, which in the case of the HD570 is too bad really since I was hoping my pair was just a bad apple. I would much sooner trust scientific testing to determine frequency response than peoples opinions, and yes frequency response is a big part of what makes one headphone more accurate than another.

Of course the headphones talked about in this thread are much more accurate than most anything else out there in the headphone world, and all of them sound quite good to me -- however, I don't believe it is any more unreasonable for a listener to want to determine which is more accurate than it is for a manufacturer, and I would sincerely hope that manufacturers use some science to develop and test their designs. I refuse to believe that such accurate headphones are the result of trial and error coupled to biased human preferences.

--
Scott
post #49 of 66
Hmmm, just wanted to mention, that I've read a massive headphone comparision in German Audiovision magazine a few months ago. Unfortunately, there was no Grado headphone included, but lots of others - and they had frequency response graphs, too: All of them were kind of wobbly, and I'm not talking of some mere +/- 2 dB wobble here. So I wouldn't rely too much on fr-graphs for headphones, because these just depend too much of the measuring method. It would be probably just as easy to set up a measurement that makes the HD 600 look wobbly and a Grado more flat. Similar ******** happens with fr-graphs of loudspeaker often enough, by the way. Usually only the responses measured directly in front of the loudspeakers are printed - but most people don't set up their speakers pointing directly towards their hearing position. Usually there is some angle between 30 and 60 degrees - so it would be much more interesting to see a fr-graph measured from 45 degress, for example.

Thus, I guess, the best way to determine the frequency response of a headphone would be doing it oneself for oneself - by listening to a prerecorded or self-generated (with software like Goldwave...) frequency sweep from 20 to 20000 Hz for yourself: Your setup, your ears, your measurement - your result!

Greetings from SF!

Manfred / lini
post #50 of 66
Quote:
I would sincerely hope that manufacturers use some science to develop and test their designs
Grado claims they design by listening which I think is wise. I assume they acquire many different opinions from different ears.

Imagine using science to pick a girlfriend or wife?
post #51 of 66
Quote:
Imagine using science to pick a girlfriend or wife?
You don't have that software? Check with Bill Gates.
post #52 of 66
Heh...well since so many marriages end in divorce, you often wonder if science could yield better results.

Heck even arranged marriages have a better success rate...and it definitely leans more towards a more calculated arrangement.

Course I don't think we should be equating headphones with women...lol you wonder why theres a low female population among headfizers. But I definitely agree, I wouldn't want a girl that measures flat either.(to that ONE female headfizer that exists...this is completely in jest! )

As for wheter or not they use science...even the act of testing headphones with people is using "science". It is just a qualitative testing measure. Grados do a lot right for being such efficient phones, so I'm sure there is some scientific thought into making them instead of just magic or luck. I'm pretty sure Grado has engineers like anyone else, and not witchdoctors or magicians.

Why give science such a bad rap, we do realize we are listening to REproduced music, and not actual live music. So you do need science and technology.

I bet the people at Grado know more about the technical performance of their headphones, than just being able to say "they sound good".
post #53 of 66
Quote:
I'm pretty sure Grado has engineers like anyone else, and not witchdoctors or magicians.
LOL!



Beagle, as for your analogy, I think we may subjectively disagree on the size of the room, but I agree with your concept of listening "space." I don't fully agree, from my experience, with your impressions of the bass on the HD600s (at least when driven by the Max). Bass is far from diffuse and difficult to pinpoint. It does lack some of the "oomph" of the better Grados, though.


DanG, when I do buy a pair of Grado's I think it will probably be the RS2 -- I've heard several people say they like the RS2 better than the RS1, and it's $200 cheaper I don't know about the MS Pros... same price as the RS1 unless you get an open-box set, although I've heard they're a bit more accurate than the RS1/RS2. True?
post #54 of 66
Mac: yeah, I feel that the MS Pro is more accurate than the RS-2, and there may even be a bigger difference between the MSP and RS-1. That's what I like about them so much. I haven't had much experience with the RS-1, but it was too warm and colored for my taste. I seriously think you ought to check it out. George Alessandro even offers a 14-day return window, I think.
post #55 of 66

OOPS, what am I talking about...

Quote:
Bass is far from diffuse and difficult to pinpoint. It does lack some of the "oomph" of the better Grados, though
I just realized I was probably talking out the back of my ass because low bass should not be "pinpoint" as it is heard as being omnipresent. So the HD600 may be VERY accurate and clean in the low bass. Mid to upperbass information can be identified in a center position. I am gonna check this out once I get my new cord.
post #56 of 66
I haven't heard either but I'm pretty sure that i'd prefer Grados considering my music tastes. I like heavy stuff, heavy metal, alternative, hard rock, even a little bit of rap sometimes. So I think for any of my music Grados would be better. I plan on getting some SR80's when I go to college next year. That and my 15mw Sony should do fine for a while.
post #57 of 66
i think some of you guys confuse accurate with good.

yes, in some ways one should strive for the most accurate system available, but a lot of the time a coloured sound can be more enjoyable.

i love my hd25sp for instance, and it's miles more tainted sound than my hd600. different characteristics, different sound, suits different music and moods.

so next time someone declares shenanigans on your headphones for having something other than a ruler-flat response curve, firstly grow up and realise that hell, it might be true. and secondly, deal with it. who cares? if they sound good, why does it matter what the curve says? jeez.
post #58 of 66
um.....lucien - the people who tout accuracy as a goal NEVER confuse it with good. For them, ACCURACY IS god, er, good

Some people want to hear "just the music" - others, the MUSIC - it's just personal preference, as you said.

But "grow up"? The last time I checked, argument was one of the things that has helped the United States evolve into the greatest nation of the modern world - why can't us headphone buffs evolve?

I know I, for one, have learned a lot from the arguments that come up between Team Accuracy and Team "Misrepresented BETTER...."
post #59 of 66
Quote:
Originally posted by Sirwar
beagle is right about the 325s. They don't have a flat frequency response response, but they still 'sound' very accurate. *loves his babies*
coolvij -

an example above of what i mean. accurate equated with good.

i don't dispute that many an audiophile aims for nothing short of absolute accuracy. i'm just saying that the mortals among us, who love great equipment, but prefer a beautiful sound to a beautiful response graph, might well need to take a step back and realise that someone accusing your babies of an inaccurate sound doesn't mean they suck. at least not to mortals.

lucien
post #60 of 66
oh, and re: the grow up part, let's put aside the nationalism for a moment and just say this:

a rich and lively debate is stimulating, and can be productive.

people just reacting devensively because someone disagrees is not a rich and lively debate.

lucien
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