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Sennheiser or Grado - Page 3

post #31 of 66
9/18/01 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 
ok, so you guys have convinced me to keep the senns. thanks guys.
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post #32 of 66
9/18/01 at 5:28pm
True, every piece of audio equipment does put its own stamp on it, but some stamp it lighter, some harder, some put more pressure on the left, etc...

by general opinion, Senns stamp lighter and more evenly.
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post #33 of 66
9/18/01 at 8:29pm
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by general opinion, Senns stamp lighter and more evenly
And they compress the frequency range to appear flat, while making a dull and bland presentation that hardly represents the original performance. I'm not trying to be argumentive, just stating what I believe to be true. Senns and Grados each do some things better than the other, but neither are accurate. And I like 'em both.
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post #34 of 66
9/18/01 at 10:28pm
You can measure the accuracy of a pair of headphones via its frequency response. The flatter the response graph, the more accurate the headphone. The HD600 are *much* flatter than any Grado. If the differences are big enough, you can hear them as well. It's pretty well accepted that Grados are not as accurate as the HD600s -- they have a huge hump in the upper mid and treble.

But, again, that's not to say that Sennheisers are more enjoyable to listen to. Some people prefer the "in your face" sound that the Grado's deviations from flat provide, just as some people prefer the more "laid back" sound that the HD600s (less severe) deviations from flat provide.
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post #35 of 66
9/19/01 at 6:28am
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You can measure the accuracy of a pair of headphones via its frequency response
That isn't the case unfortunately, as many other factors come into play. There's more to colouration than simply frequency response deviations.

For instance veiling leading edges and compressing dynamics are forms of colouration. As is loose bass. The HD600's are heavily coloured in these respects.

Quote:
Grados are not as accurate as the HD600s -- they have a huge hump in the upper mid and treble.
The Reference Series do not. I'm so sick of people making generalizations based on experience limited to the companies bottom of the barrel products.
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post #36 of 66
9/19/01 at 7:18am
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That isn't the case unfortunately, as many other factors come into play. There's more to colouration than simply frequency response deviations.
True, but if two headphones have markedly different frequency response deviations (one much more flat, one much less flat), it's a pretty good bet that even with "other factors," the former is going to be more accurate when all is said and done.

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For instance veiling leading edges and compressing dynamics are forms of colouration. As is loose bass. The HD600's are heavily coloured in these respects.
HD600s have loose bass and compressed dynamics? Don't know what HD600s you've been listening to, and with what amp... the only time I've heard HD600s have "loose" bass is with inadequate amplification. And "compressed dynamics?" If you mean they don't have the forward sound of Grado's in the upper bass and upper mid/treble, caused by positive variations from flat in their frequency response, then, yes, the HD600s are compressed, I guess...


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Grados are not as accurate as the HD600s -- they have a huge hump in the upper mid and treble.
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The Reference Series do not. I'm so sick of people making generalizations based on experience limited to the companies bottom of the barrel products.
First of all, how do you know my statement is based on "experience limited to the company's bottom of the barrel?" I'm so sick of people making assumptions about other people's experiences just because their opinion is different

Second... well, let's just look at the graphs...

http://207.66.131.158/headroom2/grap...are+Headphones

Looks to me like the RS1s have basically the same hump as the SR60s... in fact, it's actually bigger in much of the audible upper mid and treble.
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post #37 of 66
9/19/01 at 8:23am
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the only time I've heard HD600s have "loose" bass is with inadequate amplification
I don't think anyone would call the Sugden Headmaster or Earmax Pro inadequate.

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First of all, how do you know my statement is based on "experience limited to the company's bottom of the barrel
Instead of speaking from personal experience you keep going back to the graphs. The RS Series don't have this huge audible hump you speak of.

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Second... well, let's just look at the graphs...
Headroom is having difficulty taking accurate measurements. Graphs usually don't coincide with what I hear anyway.

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Looks to me like the RS1s have basically the same hump as the SR60s... in fact, it's actually bigger in much of the audible upper mid and treble
According to these measurements they have about equal bass response as well - more proof that graphs are useless. Audition them side by side and hear for yourself. The human ear is the most accurate tool of all.
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post #38 of 66
9/19/01 at 8:56am
It is pointless using graphs to determine a headphones accuracy. Graphs are meaningless because everyones ears and heads are shaped differently.

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Grados are not as accurate as the HD600s -- they have a huge hump in the upper mid and treble
They do? Since when? If anything, my SR325 is laid back in the upper mids and treble and a bit full in the bass. So much for the graphs. But then, I used my ears. How stupid of me.
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post #39 of 66
9/19/01 at 9:28am
ooh. catfight. next we'll hear scratching and hissing.

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post #40 of 66
9/19/01 at 1:15pm
I'd jump in here but SumB has taken the words out of my mouth (fingers? mind? ). I've heard the HD 600 with the Wheatfield HA-1 and Holmes Powell DCT-1 and, for a shorter time, the Max and Blockhead, and the bass was definitely loose. Much better with the Blockhead, though, although it was still a little excessive there.
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post #41 of 66
9/19/01 at 2:28pm
Well,

I will never give up my HD-600 or my HP-2's. I love them both, for different reasons. To each their own I suppose.

I kinda wish that I had the 325's, RS-1, and MSP's from Grado. But, I am not made out of money so these cans will have to wait for a long time.
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post #42 of 66
9/19/01 at 2:50pm
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Instead of speaking from personal experience you keep going back to the graphs.
*Sigh*... as I said above, don't assume I've never listened to them (Beagle and SumB). While I haven't listened to the RS1, I have listened to the RS2, which, from everything I've read here and on HeadWize, is very similar. From my listening, the RS2 *does* have an audible emphasis in that region (and another one in the upper bass). It's not as audibly severe as the lower-line models, but it sure existed when I have listened to them.

Again, I'm continually taken aback by the defensiveness exhibited when it comes to the headphones people own. I've said time and time again that I like the sound of Grado's, but people get so upset if you even imply that their "chosen" brand isn't perfectly "accurate." I'd love to ask Mr. Grado himself about this, since I seem to remember reading comments from him that Grado's have a bit more "punch" than other "hi-end" cans because of their frequency response curve. I'm also amazed how graphs are often respected... until they disagree with someone's opinion. They they become useless, or they aren't good measurements, or something else is wrong with them.

Yes, listen to your ears, because what you enjoy is the most important thing. To YOU it sounds great. There's nothing wrong with that, and my comments about Grado headphones in no way say or imply anything negative about you or your listening preferences.
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post #43 of 66
9/19/01 at 2:58pm
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I've heard the HD 600 with the Wheatfield HA-1 and Holmes Powell DCT-1 and, for a shorter time, the Max and Blockhead, and the bass was definitely loose.
Dan, replying here cuz it's a different topic

I guess I'd like to hear what people mean when they say "loose." On my system (333ES SACD, new Max), I have never felt that the HD-600 are "loose" in the bass or that they are lacking in the lows at all. I have frequently been amazed by how good the bass sounds on this system. Jude has posted similar comments about his system (which is very similar to mine). Bass is tight and sounds, well, real. Things like bass drums, upright bass, organs, bass guitar... they sound as life-like as I have ever heard them reproduced.

On the other hand, when I listened to the HD-600s through an Airhead or a Little, the bass just wasn't there, or was mudled to some extent. Hence my comments that I think amplification is the key, since the HD600s are pretty difficult to drive.

Perhaps there is simply some great synergy in my system that others don't have. I don't know. I just haven't yet heard better (more "real") bass on any other headphone system. I'm anxious to get a pair of RS2s to see how they compare here on my system (yes, I plan on buying another pair of Grados -- as I said, I really enjoy them )
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post #44 of 66
9/19/01 at 3:11pm
MacDEF, I feel that the RS-2 does sound somewhat unnaturally warmer than the MS Pro. Not much, but it's noticeable. I think that the two Grado heapdhones (that I've heard) that exhibit real clarity and natural sound are the MS Pro and the HP-1; the HP-1, though, is out of production. While the HD-600 is the top-of-the-line headphone in the Sennheiser series, the RS-2 is not in the Grado series. So perhaps you'd consider trying out the MS Pro? I think Alessandro still sells open-box MS Pros for $500.
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post #45 of 66
9/19/01 at 3:16pm
beagle is right about the 325s. They don't have a flat frequency response response, but they still 'sound' very accurate. *loves his babies*
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