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post #121 of 5935
As far as I know Jan Meier has patented crossfeed. So if it can be found elsewhere its patent stealing or a defect.
post #122 of 5935
Any comparisons between the 750 and the 2500 or 2200?

I'm considering one of these myself (was initially looking more at the 650 since on Meier audio web site it describes the 750 as having a slight pronounced treble - and I sometimes find the Beyers 990 treble a bit to much) but with the open versions added to the equation it gets more difficult to chose.
post #123 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirschkuchen View Post
As far as I know Jan Meier has patented crossfeed. So if it can be found elsewhere its patent stealing or a defect.
He patented a circuit that was invented back in the 50s? Impressive...
post #124 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirschkuchen View Post
As far as I know Jan Meier has patented crossfeed. So if it can be found elsewhere its patent stealing or a defect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl View Post
He patented a circuit that was invented back in the 50's? Impressive...
Just as a clarification and to avoid any further misunderstanding, please be aware that Jan Meier is a gentleman in all the extension of the word, his conduct has been impeccable along this years with the customers and in his professional life, it is hard to believe that he would be able to steal anything, intellectually or physically, and he is indeed a very trusty person.
What we ahve seen is all the opposite, his circuits "had been stolen" and used for DIY projects for years. If you go to his website, you will see some circuits there for public use, and you could verify that his circuit was not invented back in the 50's, as the full schematic is there, and also posted on headwize...so please be careful with statements like this, as they could be taken the wrong way...(while I read it, honestly I felt bad, as I have crossed a few emails with Jan, and he is a very nice person, and one of the pioneers of this hobby)

Jan IIRC has patented his circuit, and his crossfeed, even more recently he offered a few of his boards to the people of headfi, I got two of them as many others and we are now enjoying the crossfeed thanks to him, for free. There may be another circuits and another topologies around, headroom has an active one, and there are a few more (not that many AFAIK) that had been used in the DIY community for years...But he did not patented any circuit created back in the 50's as his, OK?
post #125 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller View Post
Just as a clarification and to avoid any further misunderstanding, please be aware that Jan Meier is a gentleman in all the extension of the word, his conduct has been impeccable along this years with the customers and in his professional life, it is hard to believe that he would be able to steal anything, intellectually or physically, and he is indeed a very trusty person.
What we ahve seen is all the opposite, his circuits "had been stolen" and used for DIY projects for years. If you go to his website, you will see some circuits there for public use, and you could verify that his circuit was not invented back in the 50's, as the full schematic is there, and also posted on headwize...so please be careful with statements like this, as they could be taken the wrong way...(while I read it, honestly I felt bad, as I have crossed a few emails with Jan, and he is a very nice person, and one of the pioneers of this hobby)

Jan IIRC has patented his circuit, and his crossfeed, even more recently he offered a few of his boards to the people of headfi, I got two of them as many others and we are now enjoying the crossfeed thanks to him, for free. There may be another circuits and another topologies around, headroom has an active one, and there are a few more (not that many AFAIK) that had been used in the DIY community for years...But he did not patented any circuit created back in the 50's as his, OK?
So what was meant to be said is that he patented one particular crossfeed circuit he created himself, not crossfeed in general. A rather different thing.

Patenting crossfeed in general would be like patenting volume controls in general, or patenting low-pass filters in general. ie, patently stupid. All "crossfeed" is is a variable stereo-mono control.
post #126 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl View Post
So what was meant to be said is that he patented one particular crossfeed circuit he created himself, not crossfeed in general. A rather different thing.

Patenting crossfeed in general would be like patenting volume controls in general, or patenting low-pass filters in general. ie, patently stupid. All "crossfeed" is is a variable stereo-mono control.

Sorry but crossfeed is far more than a simply mono/stereo gradual control, it is not only a bleeding from one channel to the other, also take into consideration the time delay of the sound in reaching the opposite ear, it is not that simple, as you try to point, please read in the Meier website what indeed is the crossfeed...and any version have to take that into consideration, otherwise is a bleeding control, and not crossfeed...
post #127 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller View Post
Sorry but crossfeed is far more than a simply mono/stereo gradual control, it is not only a bleeding from one channel to the other, also take into consideration the time delay of the sound in reaching the opposite ear, it is not that simple, as you try to point, please read in the Meier website what indeed is the crossfeed...and any version have to take that into consideration, otherwise is a bleeding control, and not crossfeed...
All variable blending of multiple channels introduce phase errors, that's why the circuits come with capacitors and inductors to correct that. No one is suggesting that they're simple circuits. But for that matter, neither are tone controls, but I don't think I've heard anyone suggesting that tone controls are a great proprietary invention. At the end of the day, it's just a circuit, and the guy is welcome to protect the particular circuit he designed, but suggestions that a phase-corrected variable-blend control is somehow special is pretty silly.

I think I have a fairly good understanding of what is involved, but thanks anyway.
post #128 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl View Post
"....but I don't think I've heard anyone suggesting that tone controls are a great proprietary invention...."
I do, and I fully agree 100%:

http://www.tubecad.com/articles_2002...ols/index.html

BTW I use them everysingle day, bassboost, tone correction on my two meier Cross-1 and whatever crosses my way.....

BTW I strongly doubt that anybody will hear the so called "phase errors" over other a lot more noticeable anomalies that you will find in nowadays recordings....like compression, distortion, freq roll offs, etc...
post #129 of 5935
Thread Starter 
Right then, moving onward from our fascinating interlude into the whys and wherefores of proprietary crossfeed circuitry (note to self: run appropriate searches and investigate further), those among us who still have some vague recollection of my recent adventures into the PROline 2500 will recall that after they had been serenely running-in for awhile, I was planning to bring them in to my local hi-fi dealer's for my first critical listening session through a decent set-up.

(The PROlines have been burning-in through the headphone-out of my Njoe Tjoeb CD player; I'm expecting my very first headphone amp in a few weeks time)

So it finally came to pass that yesterday I brought the 2500s (now with better than 200 hours under their headband) into Pink Noise, the finest independent audio emporium in Brussels.

But since the shop has recently moved into a larger space, Alexandre hasn't quite gotten round to filling in his stock as he hopes to. Consequently, the only headphone amp he currently has on offer in the diminutive Pro-Ject Head Box, sort of an afterthought product from a lower-end turntable specialist manufacturer and looking for all the world as if its output couldn't punch its way through a paper bag, not exactly what I had in mind for my first serious listen post-run-in:



But turned out that Alexandre had an ace up his sleeve and he led me in to the rear listening salon where all the heavy-hitting gear resides. There he had assembled these bad boys:


The Rega Saturn CD player


The Accuphase E-530 pure Class A integrated with dedicated headphone section

Turns out I needn't have worried!
post #130 of 5935
i don't know how anyone could call ultrasones muddy. i have the old version of the dj-1... it flat out has the best sound i've ever heard from a speaker of any sort, in cup or in air.

i'm comparing this $190 pair of phones to a $300 pair of grados too... the grado's sounded small and empty... like ****. these... they will show the life of the music. they're deep in the base, full, have a nice soundstage, have more dynamic impact than the grados possibly due to the better and deeper bass,
the mids are nice, the highs are wow detailed, and the timbre is THERE.

i want some proline 650's. i've read there the best. the only thing i hate about these phones is the comfort and the headband.

they need to offer a grado like headband that's easily adjusted and bent. they need to make the ear cup deep and bigger around. i think the new prolines are bigger around. i wonder if they're any more comfortable. i was told the new proline pads wont fit the old proline models.

i'm not sure i can ever listen to another phone. i'm curious about the new dt990 though.
post #131 of 5935
Thanks everyone

I bought the HFI 2200 ULE from geartree.com and waiting for it to ship tomorrow

I hope it won't need an amp.. if I really liked it, I may buy a small amp for it...

Wish me luck
post #132 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolos View Post
Thanks everyone

I bought the HFI 2200 ULE from geartree.com and waiting for it to ship tomorrow

I hope it won't need an amp.. if I really liked it, I may buy a small amp for it...

Wish me luck
Generally (with a few exceptions) headphones do not "need" an amp, but they will benefit from its use in one way or another, and I think that the 2200 is not the exception of that rule...but I ahve used my PROLines with my recently purchased Panasonic 570 with good results...but with an amp they would sound better of course...anyway they are too big for my tste to use them for protable use...
post #133 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller View Post
I'm certainly not opposed to such things, either.

Incidentally, that Tubecad article has a very nice and simple crossfeed circuit on the fifth page (this). If people want to make their own one, that's a good place to start.

Quote:
BTW I strongly doubt that anybody will hear the so called "phase errors" over other a lot more noticeable anomalies that you will find in nowadays recordings....like compression, distortion, freq roll offs, etc...
Phase certainly takes a back seat to frequency and amplitude when it comes to audibility, but I personally can hear phase errors. Not necessarily to the point of finding them objectionable, of course.
post #134 of 5935
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolos View Post
Thanks everyone

I bought the HFI 2200 ULE from geartree.com and waiting for it to ship tomorrow

Wish me luck
Well done, lolos! (lolos smilie)

Those 2200s not only look swell, they are a super-fun listen!

Be sure to let us know how you get on with them...enjoy!

Dex
post #135 of 5935
Thread Starter 
Meanwhile, back at Pink Noise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexdexter View Post
But turned out that Alexandre had an ace up his sleeve and he led me in to the rear listening salon where all the heavy-hitting gear resides. There he had assembled these bad boys:


The Rega Saturn CD player


The Accuphase E-530 pure Class A integrated with dedicated headphone section
I had heard the Rega Saturn on a couple of other occasions, but only with loudspeakers. It has the most detailed and fluid top-end I have heard from any CD player, along with a midrange warmth and taut bass presentation that closely approaches a top-notch vinyl rig. And it is the first Rega player to equal, if not surpass, Naim CD spinners at better than twice the price in terms of pace, rhythm and timing. I'm hoping that the Saturn will be my next CD player, in the not-too-distant future.

The Accuphase is a veritable beast of an integrated, with the fit and finish that screams exacting high-end Japanese quality unchanged since the 1970s; just rotating its massive volume knob is, dare I say, a rather sensual experience. And don't get me started on those VU meters...

Once situated, Alexandre handed me a clutch of his favorite demonstration CDs (mainly classical, female vocals and acoustic jazz), all of which I am quite familiar with having been a regular customer of his for the past three years.

I cued-up Patricia Barber's cover of the Bill Withers classic "Use Me", from the album Companion and from the moment I pressed "play" I found myself figuratively scrambling about the floor in search of my jaw!

The intimacy of her voice, the smacking of her tongue upon the roof of her mouth countering the syncopated shuffling of the rhythm section amidst that infamous slithering guitar vamp were all delivered effortlessly and realistically by the PROline 2500s.

Up next was the title cut from acoustic guitar wizard Antonio Forcione's Tears Of Joy, a real rhythmic torture-test that mercilessly reveals timing flaws in pretty much any system.

Forcione's flamenco-esque figures begin softly vying for attention against spare hand-percussion that pans languidly back and forth across the soundstage. A cello enters to hold down the bottom-end drone as the guitar playing becomes progressively faster and evermore complex, as does the percussion, peaking to an ecstatic crescendo punctuated by a lone cymbal crash only to start all over again.

Impressively, the 2500s manage to keep up every step of the way, capturing the enormous body and tone of Forcione's acoustic without losing sight of the intricate percussion patterns as they float across the channels. And those singular cymbal splashes are delivered with a lifelike sheening metallic sustain in real space as opposed to the unconvincing and claustrophobic "clank" I've heard through a few less adept loudspeakers.

I was quite happily ensconced in my little corner there, feeding CDs into the Rega and really just enjoying my new cans for the first time since I bought them. But I wanted Alexandre's opinion, so once the customer traffic for the afternoon had diminished, I invited him to have a listen.

I handed over the 2500s and went out to get us some sodas. When I returned about 15 minutes later, Alexandre was still hunched forward in the chair with a very serious look on his face. When he saw that I was back, he removed the cans and cracked a half-smile. I asked what he thought.

"I don't like the look and I could never sell them. They are too much plastic-looking. But the sound is special. The soundstage is bigger than it should be from headphones. The tone is correct, the bass is very good, the midrange is slightly shy in comparison to the treble, which is a little more forward than I like."

When I told him that his assessment of the PROlines sounded exactly like his critique of the Rega Saturn itself (he prefers the Naim sound), he replied, "Yes, that's entirely possible."

So just that's a brief taste of what I heard the 2500s do in combination with the Saturn / Accuphase pairing. Looking back on my initial demo through the Marantz CD player, impressive as that was to me at the time, it really only hinted at what these Ultrasones are truly capable of with proper source and amplification.

Unfortunately, the wait for my first dedicated headphone amplifier will not be an easy one!

Best, Dex
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