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hornet burn stages - Page 2

post #16 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by aluren
nice post, romanee. i think for the simple-minded people like myself, if someone mentions to me that there will be a change in sound after 400+ hours of burn in, then i'll take the advice and see for myself. it doesn't hurt... if after 400+ hours and there is no change, then start debating on the matter. debating is always fun!
So it is.

If someone does that comparison and hears no difference I'm certainly willing to discuss it more, and try to listen under the same conditions they did, if possible, to recreate their experience. There's always something to learn.
post #17 of 104
I'm contemplating getting my 500+ hour Hornet modified. If I did, I'd seriously think about recording the output of the headphone jack at different stages of burn in. Maybe every 50 hours or so. if I did any suggestions on how to conduct such a test. burn in method of alternating pink/white noise and maybe a single all-rounder test track to record?
post #18 of 104
Thread Starter 
man. i guess you can't mention 'burn-in' without all the freaks coming out to debate it. Anyways -

back to the issue. recording the burn in stages would be awesome, hilarious, and might not really work. we'd have to listen to the playback through our own amps and that f it all up. but maybe there'd be subtle dynamic changes that would come through all that, and maybe that's worth trying it for. if i were you, i'd record straight to dat or your comp. when you're done, post the file on here.
post #19 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIGANTOID
I'm contemplating getting my 500+ hour Hornet modified. If I did, I'd seriously think about recording the output of the headphone jack at different stages of burn in. Maybe every 50 hours or so. if I did any suggestions on how to conduct such a test. burn in method of alternating pink/white noise and maybe a single all-rounder test track to record?
don't forget that if you "M" mod your Hornet, Ray won't replace your current cap as part of that mod (unless you have the Nichicon cap instead of the Panasonic one). therefore, when you get your "M" back, there's no need to start the burn-in timer at zero again since the cap is the thing that takes longest to burn in. it'll probably be more like under 100 hours, meaning a good week of just nonstop playing.
post #20 of 104
Am I right in assuming that the cap in the Hornet is an Electrolytic? (I purchased two of these from Ray about a month ago, but have been at work since, so have not gotten to hear them )

I have upgraded the caps in a phono stage with film (audio note silvers), at the time I was told by the people who did the upgrade (parts connexion) that the caps would require between 40-100hours, for the caps to settle in, or dare I say "burn in"

During the break in period of the phono stage, I found a lot of similarities in what Romanee describes, however to my ears it all happened a lot quicker.

As Romanee says that the hornet takes up to 400 hours to bloom, does anyone have any knowledge as to why film caps (as advised and heard) only take 40-100 hours or so?

I also plan to leave one hornet virgin (a christmas present), and break the other in, once done I will post my findings as to what I heard
post #21 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahn
don't forget that if you "M" mod your Hornet, Ray won't replace your current cap as part of that mod (unless you have the Nichicon cap instead of the Panasonic one). therefore, when you get your "M" back, there's no need to start the burn-in timer at zero again since the cap is the thing that takes longest to burn in.
curse your vulcan logic!!!!
post #22 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder
It's called placebo. You think you hear changes because it's expensive gear. My dad, as electrical engineer, tells me there's virtually nothing that needs a few minutes of 'burn-in', let alone 300 hours. The electronic stuff inside needs a few seconds, at most, to settle. Oh well, it's another burn-in debate and above all, things that audiophiles 'can hear' and other people cannot
I totally agree.
post #23 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanee
Along the way I called Ray and discussed the lean bass with him (I worried he might have just shifted the whole balance up the frequency spectrum at the expense of the deep bass...) and he just said "be patient, it will be there -- you're in for a surprise", or something like that (I don't remember exactly what -- it was a long chat). The lows just took a long time to arrive. With this amp the bass seemed to have blossomed between 300-350 hours, but surprisingly improved more between 350-400 hours (no more changes after that)! I don't know if there's any unit-to-unit variation, or if they'll all follow a similar "curve". Let us know what happens with yours.

The power of suggestion at work.
post #24 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by 883dave
Am I right in assuming that the cap in the Hornet is an Electrolytic? (I purchased two of these from Ray about a month ago, but have been at work since, so have not gotten to hear them )

I have upgraded the caps in a phono stage with film (audio note silvers), at the time I was told by the people who did the upgrade (parts connexion) that the caps would require between 40-100hours, for the caps to settle in, or dare I say "burn in"

During the break in period of the phono stage, I found a lot of similarities in what Romanee describes, however to my ears it all happened a lot quicker.

As Romanee says that the hornet takes up to 400 hours to bloom, does anyone have any knowledge as to why film caps (as advised and heard) only take 40-100 hours or so?

I also plan to leave one hornet virgin (a christmas present), and break the other in, once done I will post my findings as to what I heard
That's the acid test right there. I look forward to reading about that comparo!
post #25 of 104
Thread Starter 
this is the most boring debate ever. it's true, the only people who say it's not haven't heard the amp in question. that comparison has been done by many people before. there's threads about it here, and there's an in depth review and comparison on 6 moons audio where the reviewer clearly finds differences. they are not subtle. anyways... ZZzzzZzzz
post #26 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder
It's called placebo. You think you hear changes because it's expensive gear. My dad, as electrical engineer, tells me there's virtually nothing that needs a few minutes of 'burn-in', let alone 300 hours. The electronic stuff inside needs a few seconds, at most, to settle. Oh well, it's another burn-in debate and above all, things that audiophiles 'can hear' and other people cannot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julio
I totally agree.
Then look no further and leave this hobby. If it's all placebo, then follow your conviction throughout, in which case this stuff's all the same, isn't it? So why bother?
post #27 of 104
I'm not sure what your point is. For things to not differ in one way does not mean they do not differ in other ways.

If I say the material a car's seats are made out of do not affect its speed, does not mean I am saying that all cars are the same speed? No... so why does a lack of belief in burn-in necessarily indicate that all audio is the same?
post #28 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by K2Grey
I'm not sure what your point is. For things to not differ in one way does not mean they do not differ in other ways.

If I say the material a car's seats are made out of do not affect its speed, does not mean I am saying that all cars are the same speed? No... so why does a lack of belief in burn-in necessarily indicate that all audio is the same?
There have been more than enough posts -- by me and other members -- describing significant audible differences between virgin amps (Hornet or otherwise) and the same model after lengthy periods of play. Declaring that it's all placebo effect and power of suggestion suggests that we have no powers of discernment and are simply overly susceptible to these psychological influences.

These kinds of declarations are immature and lacking in any sort of intelligent, logical approach to determining whether or not there is any veracity or value in our various perceptions, based on at the very least, participating with us in observing and documenting what it is we perceive and under what conditions. It is not so difficult to accomplish this -- but obviously much easier, though less mature and more adversarial, to dismiss all other viewpoints than their own as placebo and results of the power of suggestion.

If someone makes no effort to engage in intelligent discourse, then it seems likely they will be equally dismissive of many other observations that run counter to their personal set of acceptable parameters. Of course I don't know that they will perceive "sameness" everywhere. I was obviously being sarcastic. My apology for not remaining positive. I'm no saint and I do get fed up sometimes. I'll try to be more cool-headed.
post #29 of 104
What we need are measurements.

If the difference is large enough to be heard, it must be pretty easy to measure.

Graphs > Words
post #30 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy
What we need are measurements.

If the difference is large enough to be heard, it must be pretty easy to measure.

Graphs > Words

Not necessarily. If you look at the Headroom site, there are tons of graphs measuring all sorts of things concerning headphones. But none of that really translates into "oh this means it sounds 'better'" until you slap it on your head. Head-fi is a bit more subjective than other sites. No harm in that, since pretty much no one here is trying to say "the ABSOLUTE TRUTH is that Amp X is better than Amp Y." Regardless if the technical side makes you more comfortable in what you hear or not, folks can only give you first-hand impressions of what they hear, and we read them with a grain of salt. That grain might contain "that wasn't a Double-Blind Test tho!" or "did you have a multimeter there? no? then who cares" or "didn't you just get over a cold? your sinuses affected the results!" or whatever. Plenty of grains to pass around - just don't forget to not get too salty!
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