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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 502

post #7516 of 36901

You show me an amp that 'greatly improves' bass extension to the HD650 and I'll be the first to try it out and pit it against my other amps.


Edited by TMRaven - 8/18/12 at 9:41pm
post #7517 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

At present I run the HD650 from my NAD 326Bee amplifier....

 

If I was to get a better dedicated headphone amp would this improve the bass extension?

 

I guess probably not and it might just improve the quality but not the depth.

 

I tried a few of my headphones out of the HP out of my NAD T752 receiver (2002-2003 model) - the HP out was really pretty bad, esp with HP's that required higher drive/power.

 

Try it out of something better - preferably borrow something or go to a buddy's house that has something better (vintage receiver HP out) or dedicated HP amp.  If my experience with NAD HP output is any indication, you're not doing justice to your HD650's.

post #7518 of 36901

There are at least two problems with integrated amp headphone outs. First off let's talk about how one gets the amplified signal to the headphone out in a high power amp. If we are talking about a low powered (~20W) amp then one could just re-rout the main line and soften it up with some resistors. You still would get high noise because of the gain and resistors but I find this way to be optimal because essentially you are listening to the amplifier. For higher powered amp one could reroute the signal from only a part of the output cascade, if circuit topology permits and then add resistors. The downside to this is high-ish output impedance and aforementioned noise.

 

Nowadays most of the integrated amplifiers dubbed "receivers" are usually Class-D or Class-H with high power and many channels for HT use. This makes the output dumbing with resistors highly impractical hence the usual way of implementing the headphone out is to put a cheap op-amp based amp. Again- here the headphone out is only as an afterthought. Personally I find the usual HT receivers very sub-optimal for serious music listening as they are made to impress with high output power and generally fail everywhere else.

 

All in all one must always keep in mind that until recently the headphone has always been an accessory meant only for listening when other means were impossible. Also the standard for headphone output impedance for some reason is 120Ohms which could prove troublesome with some low impedance headphones.

post #7519 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by RudeWolf View Post

There are at least two problems with integrated amp headphone outs. First off let's talk about how one gets the amplified signal to the headphone out in a high power amp. If we are talking about a low powered (~20W) amp then one could just re-rout the main line and soften it up with some resistors. You still would get high noise because of the gain and resistors but I find this way to be optimal because essentially you are listening to the amplifier. For higher powered amp one could reroute the signal from only a part of the output cascade, if circuit topology permits and then add resistors. The downside to this is high-ish output impedance and aforementioned noise.

 

Nowadays most of the integrated amplifiers dubbed "receivers" are usually Class-D or Class-H with high power and many channels for HT use. This makes the output dumbing with resistors highly impractical hence the usual way of implementing the headphone out is to put a cheap op-amp based amp. Again- here the headphone out is only as an afterthought. Personally I find the usual HT receivers very sub-optimal for serious music listening as they are made to impress with high output power and generally fail everywhere else.

 

All in all one must always keep in mind that until recently the headphone has always been an accessory meant only for listening when other means were impossible. Also the standard for headphone output impedance for some reason is 120Ohms which could prove troublesome with some low impedance headphones.

I have just experienced this first hand having gone from the HP out of a Sony AV receiver to an Audio-gd NFB-5.2. Even as a moderately priced DAC/Amp combo, the output from the NFB-5.2 runs absolute rings around the Sony HP out because the Audio-gd is designed to drive headphones. My HD650s sound awesome out of the NFB-5.2!!

post #7520 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by meeklo062704 View Post


In your opinion, is there much else out there within $100 that is close or better to the quality of the sound brought out of it? At this point my plan is to only get what I need, but realistically I'll probably end up picking up new components every few months. I have a bad habit of tweaking my computer non stop, and have a feeling that audio won't be any different. So I'm looking at the STX as the "get my foot in the door" stepping stone until I can figure out what equipment will be best for my ears.

 

I would say the V-DAC but that's about 150$ more. In the same price range is the Dacmagic for a slightly different presentation than the V-DAC. Both are (IMHO) better than the STX though with a price tag attached.

post #7521 of 36901

What's the most uncolored DAC for the HD-650 under say $300?

 

I don't want even slightly forward (aka "musical") mids, but dead neutral mids.

No rolled off treble or a something "warm".

 

I guess maybe the ODAC is it? Anything else?

 

I'm not a big fan of the HRT MSII with Sennheiser stuff. Not sure why.

 

Is the V-DAC more neutral than the HRT MSII?

 

What's weird is that this E10 I have for testing seems to have more treble than my HRT. Makes no sense!

post #7522 of 36901

Dacport LX?

post #7523 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by captouch View Post

 

I tried a few of my headphones out of the HP out of my NAD T752 receiver (2002-2003 model) - the HP out was really pretty bad, esp with HP's that required higher drive/power.

 

Try it out of something better - preferably borrow something or go to a buddy's house that has something better (vintage receiver HP out) or dedicated HP amp.  If my experience with NAD HP output is any indication, you're not doing justice to your HD650's.

 

But it is well known that NAD receivers are not great and also the headphone jack on them is poor (same with most receivers headphone jacks vs stereo amp)... whereas the stereo amps are excellent for the money and they are supposed to have pretty damn good headphone jack... I have read quite a few reports saying "NAD headphone jacks are as good as most headphone amplifiers < £200


Edited by nicholars - 8/19/12 at 12:43pm
post #7524 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

 

But it is well known that NAD receivers are not great and also the headphone jack on them is poor (same with most receivers headphone jacks vs stereo amp)... whereas the stereo amps are excellent for the money and they are supposed to have pretty damn good headphone jack... I have read quite a few reports saying "NAD headphone jacks are as good as most headphone amplifiers < £200

 

Oh, I didn't know that.  Now I do.  smile.gif

post #7525 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by captouch View Post

 

Oh, I didn't know that.  Now I do.  smile.gif

 

I would like to try out some dedicated amps because everyone seems to think that HD650 needs a good amp... Although I have also read a lot of reports saying that NAD headphone jacks (on the stereo amps) are actually rather good and you would need to spend more than £200 to get better performance...T he 326bee does sound pretty good to me although I have nothing to compare it to.

post #7526 of 36901

maybe a cheap tube amp, I think you can borrow some really high end amps from the cablecompany too, for 5% of their price.  They'll let you try their stuff out for 10 or so days.

post #7527 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsan View Post

 

I own 650 and was about to purchase LCD2 hoping it has 'better' sound. Your post makes me think again...

 I like the Ortho sound, so I pick the LCD2 but only slightly

post #7528 of 36901

Anyone tried the Go-Vibe Porta Tube with HD650s? I'm looking for a simple bedside option, but don't want anything too big.

post #7529 of 36901
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

 

I would like to try out some dedicated amps because everyone seems to think that HD650 needs a good amp... Although I have also read a lot of reports saying that NAD headphone jacks (on the stereo amps) are actually rather good and you would need to spend more than £200 to get better performance...T he 326bee does sound pretty good to me although I have nothing to compare it to.

 

HD650 does benefit from a good amp.  But as I've learned from the Marantz integrated I really bought for HE-6 ea good integrated can have a pretty decent headphone amp.  I'm not a fan of SS with HD650, I think it strongly prefers tubes, and Lyr is still my favorite amp for HD650, but I have to say the Marantz integrated's  HP out did a great job, and sounded musical.  The midbass hump was a little overdriven with it, but all in all it wasn't bad sounding...much more musical than the overly-analytical O2 (not a knock against O2...it's just really analytical with HD650.  So in your case, a dedicated might not give you that big a bump unless you wanted to go really different and get tubes which would give you something very different. )

 

HP out on speaker amps get a bad rep largely because of the flood of AVRs in the past 15 years with those horrible tacked in opamps and horrible output impedance. Real separates can still have good HP outs, but nobody buys real separates anymore redface.gif

post #7530 of 36901

Thats interesting because when I was demo'ing new amplifiers I tried the Marantz and the NAD A/B and personally preferred the NAD because it had more punchy bass through the headphone jack... The quality on both was good though but they just had different sound signatures....

 

It is interesting to hear that because it confirms what I was thinking, especially as you have had a lot of experience with various amplifiers.... I think I will try a dedicated amp at some point but I don't think the difference will be quite as massive as people make out unless maybe I switched from SS to tubes.

 

The headphone jack on the 326Bee has an impedance of 68ohms whereas the HD650 are 300ohms.... Do this sound about right? Isnt it supposed to be 10x the impedance?


Edited by nicholars - 8/20/12 at 8:29am
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