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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 487

post #7291 of 36831

I got a set of these back in November to replace my worn out HD280's. Up until that time I thought it couldnt get any better then the 280's I had owned for years and bought blindly. When they were dying I decided to look and see what else might be out there or get a replacement set. WOW what a world I opened up!!!! 

 

I now have a few other sets of headphones too to use for specific music but these remain my goto headphones. 

 

I am thinking about getting a new cable from moonaudio but not sure if I want the black dragon to try and bring the bottom end out a little more or go with the silver to brighten them up a little. I am kind of afraid to brighten them up as I like the dark nature these have now. Any idea's from the peeps who have recabled there's?

 

beerchug.gif

post #7292 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by asmoday View Post

I got a set of these back in November to replace my worn out HD280's. Up until that time I thought it couldnt get any better then the 280's I had owned for years and bought blindly. When they were dying I decided to look and see what else might be out there or get a replacement set. WOW what a world I opened up!!!! 

I now have a few other sets of headphones too to use for specific music but these remain my goto headphones. 

I am thinking about getting a new cable from moonaudio but not sure if I want the black dragon to try and bring the bottom end out a little more or go with the silver to brighten them up a little. I am kind of afraid to brighten them up as I like the dark nature these have now. Any idea's from the peeps who have recabled there's?

beerchug.gif


I know many cable fans do not want to accept the fact, but really, sound change via cable is only from the distortion of the original sound. It is identical to using a hardware equaliser. It doesn't matter if the cable is made of gold or it costs 1000dollars. The cable should be used to losslessly transfer the original sound, not damage/lose certain area of the frequency (and cable manufacturers intentinally do this and claim it as tuned sound) you can achieve identical effect using digital equaliser and it doesn't damage the sound like the cable sound change.

Man I can already imagine people will witch hunt this post.
Edited by dsan - 8/3/12 at 9:52pm
post #7293 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by asmoday View Post

I am thinking about getting a new cable from moonaudio but not sure if I want the black dragon to try and bring the bottom end out a little more or go with the silver to brighten them up a little. I am kind of afraid to brighten them up as I like the dark nature these have now. Any idea's from the peeps who have recabled there's?

 

I'd grab up a Zu Mobius v2, if you can find one.  The ergonomics are phenomenal.

post #7294 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsan View Post


I know many cable fans do not want to accept the fact, but really, sound change via cable is only from the distortion of the original sound. It is identical to using a hardware equaliser. It doesn't matter if the cable is made of gold or it costs 1000dollars. The cable should be used to losslessly transfer the original sound, not damage/loose certain area of the frequency (and cable manufacturers intentinally do this and claim it as tuned sound) you can achieve identical effect using digital equaliser and it doesn't damage the sound like the cable sound change.
Man I can already imagine people will witch hunt this post.

 

How dare you compare a wire to a hardware equalizer!  My DEQ2496 is offended greatly!

post #7295 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

A music listener buying headphones that reveal every little flaw in the upstream and downstream chains of playback and recording is like a photo studio buying camera lenses that reveal every little flaw in the model's skin complexion.  Sometimes it's better to pay more for something that makes the subject more attractive, and when you can make the subject more attractive for less money, it's a win-win biggrin.gif

 

Trouble-finding headphones are excellent tools and every studio professional should own one if they care about their output, and every audio designer and installer should own one for testing.   There's absolutely a place for headphones like the HD800.  They'd be invaluable as a professional tool .  But I think ultimately HD800 and HD650 have different intentions.  HD800 is a studio tool.  HD650 is a music listening device.  I still haven't ruled out an HD800 for utilitarian purposes....but I wouldn't reach for one when I wanted to sit down and enjoy the concert.

 

Obviously some people like yourself do like that kind of detail for their daily listening.  But I think there's fewer that do than don't.  And I suspect many that do work or have worked in the recording or gigging biz at some point, such as your self in the processing biz. With a certain background in production, the perception of the normal music experience is different. 

Indeed they are.  They're actually quite a detailed headphone and as such they reveal all the flaws almost as well as it's more workbench oriented cousins above.  But what it does is rolls off some of the frequencies where those details of the flaws are evident so they don't jump out at you as much and you can still enjoy the show.  Headphones like the HD800 accentuate some of those frequencies or at least don't try to hide them so they throw all the detail in your face....good or bad.  That's what makes them "oh so detailed", but also what makes them so unforgiving.   That is a desirable trait for production purposes where you need to identify every flaw before the final master.  It can be unpleasant for listening to all but the most perfect recordings played on the most perfect playback chains.

 

Actually, the HD 800 are also superb for relaxing and listening to good music.

 

When I first heard them, about three years ago, I was just listening to music for a couple of hours - or so I thought - it was actually 6 hours solid listening and I thought it was only 2!

 

With good music, they are an absolute pleasure to listen to.

post #7296 of 36831

Hey HD650 aficionados. Through a series of purchases, I have both a new IE80 and a W4, both still sealed. I really love the HD650 but didn't have it when I had either the IE8 or the last time I had the W4. I can only pick one of the two and am hesitant to rip them open like its Christmas morning. Which would you recommend as being the best compliment for the HD650 for portable listening?

 

Listen to a ton of violins and strings and love the HD650 for that. The iem would be for the more alternative, new age, folk and some classical.


Edited by imackler - 8/4/12 at 7:07am
post #7297 of 36831

FYI guys, it's "Headphone Month" on Amazon.com right now and the 650 is on sale for $419

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-650-Headphones/dp/B00018MSNI/

post #7298 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by PelPix View Post

FYI guys, it's "Headphone Month" on Amazon.com right now and the 650 is on sale for $419

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-650-Headphones/dp/B00018MSNI/


Pretty sure you can always get it from razordogdeals for $350. Authorized dealer, great guy.

post #7299 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by imackler View Post


Pretty sure you can always get it from razordogdeals for $350. Authorized dealer, great guy.

I'm afraid not.  Senn raised the price of the HD650 by quite a bit and recently clamped down on the balls of all authorized resellers and forced them to list $499 as the minimum non-sale price :(  The MSRP is now something like $550 and as long as he remains an authorized reseller, he's not allowed to price it below $499 for extended periods, IIRC.

http://www.razordogdeals.com/collections/frontpage/products/sennheiser-hd-650-audiophile-headphones-hd650-new


Edited by PelPix - 8/4/12 at 9:41am
post #7300 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by PelPix View Post

I'm afraid not.  Senn raised the price of the HD650 by quite a bit and recently clamped down on the balls of all authorized resellers and forced them to list $499 as the minimum non-sale price :(  The MSRP is now something like $550 and as long as he remains an authorized reseller, he's not allowed to price it below $499 for extended periods, IIRC.

http://www.razordogdeals.com/collections/frontpage/products/sennheiser-hd-650-audiophile-headphones-hd650-new

 

Submit a bid on his ebay page. Pretty sure you can get it to 350 but maybe something changed in the last couple months. Or send him email him at blarson@razordogdeals.com and offer $350.

post #7301 of 36831

I emailed him, but pretty sure something DID change.  Sennheiser products are now price-fixed.  There is no offer option on his ebay auctions anymore.

post #7302 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by imackler View Post

Hey HD650 aficionados. Through a series of purchases, I have both a new IE80 and a W4, both still sealed. I really love the HD650 but didn't have it when I had either the IE8 or the last time I had the W4. I can only pick one of the two and am hesitant to rip them open like its Christmas morning. Which would you recommend as being the best compliment for the HD650 for portable listening?

 

Listen to a ton of violins and strings and love the HD650 for that. The iem would be for the more alternative, new age, folk and some classical.

It has to be the IE8/80. The bass on dynamic driver is a notch better than BA's.

With some EQ, the IE80 can sound very identical to the hd650s, in fact they're more musical, less analytical.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsan View Post


I know many cable fans do not want to accept the fact, but really, sound change via cable is only from the distortion of the original sound. It is identical to using a hardware equaliser. It doesn't matter if the cable is made of gold or it costs 1000dollars. The cable should be used to losslessly transfer the original sound, not damage/lose certain area of the frequency (and cable manufacturers intentinally do this and claim it as tuned sound) you can achieve identical effect using digital equaliser and it doesn't damage the sound like the cable sound change.
Man I can already imagine people will witch hunt this post.

Have you not thought that headphones manufacturers like sennheiser doesn't wish to overprice their headphones because of using expensive silver cables?

Not everyone is into the idea of using a $300 cables on $400 headphones, thus the default cables that comes with them are always priced less than a hundred or fifty.

 

Most cables are copper, with some having less purity, they are less conductive than silver.

post #7303 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscular View Post

Most cables are copper, with some having less purity, they are less conductive than silver.

 

and tell me Silver cable is better than copper cable and it sounds better? really? maybe by a little margin statistically (few percents?), but it is impossible to hear the difference between copper cable and silver cable. Also FR doesnt even change much anyway. There has been more than many papers and research analysis done on this topic and it always concluded with pretty much no difference, or not effective enough for the human ears. Copper cable with less making technology 50 years ago may have some issues due to lack of skills in making decent cables but we are living in 2012 here. Pretty much any cable made today is decent enough to suit its purpose. Loselessly transfer the original sound. Cable made for the Sennheiser? better than enough. 

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgoldenears.net%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fmid%3DST_KB_byGE%26search_target%3Dtitle%26search_keyword%3D%25EC%25BC%2580%25EC%259D%25B4%25EB%25B8%2594%26document_srl%3D365912

 

Try reading this article by Golden Ears, it is translated but it gets the message. 

 

 

 

 

Also, the main purpose of the cable post was how they 'change' the sound signature. 

Mainly this is done by Inductance & Capacitance added in the cable. I do not want to write an essay here so it basically means when there is more inductance you will hear less highs, more Capacitance will make less lows. Often those expensive cable who claims to provide 'better' sound signature are cables with intentional Inductance & Capacitance added. They will explain this as 'clear, sharp' sounds or 'strong, impact' sounds, but in reality its just disappearance of lows and highs, and it is the worst thing from the engineering perspective.

 

some people may think "it still changes the sound anyway, so it does what it is suppose to do anyway?"

But really if you think what cable is suppose to do, it is meant to provide full intended sounds transferred from the amplifier. Speaker manufacturers do not design their products considering distortions from the cable. Because cables usually do their jobs well and normally they are now made with less Inductance & Capacitance. 

 

But whatever science says, people will still think "My speakers (or heads) have alot of bass, I can use a cable with alot of capacitance and balance it out". Yes it will serve the intended job (like alot of cable manufacturers claim) But it is just better to achieve same result with changing the speaker position or if its heads, it is better to achieve identical result using an digital eq. It will give 'better' sound quality.

 

Why better sound? Lets example this with an hardware equaliser. A lot (or everyone) who are into high end listening never recommend you to use hardware equaliser, saying it distorts the sound. EQ works by cutting out certain areas of the frequency, and this is done by mixing Inductance & Capacitance. When electricity is transferred by Inductance & Capacitance, the phase will change in voltage and current. So the the maximum output in voltage and current will not meet which will result reduced/less output. (Bad power factor).

 

In Audio, this will reduce the dynamic range, or add noise. So in high end audio people just dont use hardware EQ because its not good for the sound. But digital EQ works totally differently so if you need to change FR response, digital is much better option.

 

Back to Cable, Inductance & Capacitance added in cables will do exactly same as what the hardware EQ does. Which damage/lose/distort the sound. 

 

Without Inductance & Capacitance heavily added but just better material? back to the where this post started, there is pretty much no change in sound, FR, or quality. 

 

Invest your money on something else, not cable.


I am not an engineer, or have done anything related to engineering, and my English is not the first language so there will be many grammatical or vocab errors, but I hope it helps. (Most of the stuff I said above are learnt from golden ears and audio holics) 


Edited by dsan - 8/5/12 at 3:17am
post #7304 of 36831

I remember and old, old article in sterophile (I think) were they were doing blind A/B tests of different interconnects and speaker cables.

 

None of the participants managed to conclusivly hear any improvements between a mega-hyper-$$$$$-cable and a thick bare copper wire sold from a hardware store.

 

Pretty eye-opening stuff.

 

I myself am an advocat of EQ-ing the sound to suit your taste rather than through changing cables etc.

 

I think this happens naturally once you give up on the idea that there is some kind of "objectively neutral sound" out there that can be achieved - because there really isn't.

 

Everyone's ears are different, everyone hear things different and rock stars have the worst ears of all after standing next to those 130dB speakers night after night.

 

This being said - I do believe aftermarket cables have a place on the market in terms of going balanced, hardwiring and improving noise isloation etc. But I don't really expect any sonic improvements from the actual copper wire.


Edited by TwoEars - 8/5/12 at 4:33am
post #7305 of 36831
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsan View Post

 

and tell me Silver cable is better than copper cable and it sounds better? really? maybe by a little margin statistically (few percents?), but it is impossible to hear the difference between copper cable and silver cable. Also FR doesnt even change much anyway. There has been more than many papers and research analysis done on this topic and it always concluded with pretty much no difference, or not effective enough for the human ears. Copper cable with less making technology 50 years ago may have some issues due to lack of skills in making decent cables but we are living in 2012 here. Pretty much any cable made today is decent enough to suit its purpose. Loselessly transfer the original sound. Cable made for the Sennheiser? better than enough. 

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgoldenears.net%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fmid%3DST_KB_byGE%26search_target%3Dtitle%26search_keyword%3D%25EC%25BC%2580%25EC%259D%25B4%25EB%25B8%2594%26document_srl%3D365912

 

Try reading this article by Golden Ears, it is translated but it gets the message. 

 

 

 

 

Also, the main purpose of the cable post was how they 'change' the sound signature. 

Mainly this is done by Inductance & Capacitance added in the cable. I do not want to write an essay here so it basically means when there is more inductance you will hear less highs, more Capacitance will make less lows. Often those expensive cable who claims to provide 'better' sound signature are cables with intentional Inductance & Capacitance added. They will explain this as 'clear, sharp' sounds or 'strong, impact' sounds, but in reality its just disappearance of lows and highs, and it is the worst thing from the engineering perspective.

 

some people may think "it still changes the sound anyway, so it does what it is suppose to do anyway?"

But really if you think what cable is suppose to do, it is meant to provide full intended sounds transferred from the amplifier. Speaker manufacturers do not design their products considering distortions from the cable. Because cables usually do their jobs well and normally they are now made with less Inductance & Capacitance. 

 

But whatever science says, people will still think "My speakers (or heads) have alot of bass, I can use a cable with alot of capacitance and balance it out". Yes it will serve the intended job (like alot of cable manufacturers claim) But it is just better to achieve same result with changing the speaker position or if its heads, it is better to achieve identical result using an digital eq. It will give 'better' sound quality.

 

Why better sound? Lets example this with an hardware equaliser. A lot (or everyone) who are into high end listening never recommend you to use hardware equaliser, saying it distorts the sound. EQ works by cutting out certain areas of the frequency, and this is done by mixing Inductance & Capacitance. When electricity is transferred by Inductance & Capacitance, the phase will change in voltage and current. So the the maximum output in voltage and current will not meet which will result reduced/less output. (Bad power factor).

 

In Audio, this will reduce the dynamic range, or add noise. So in high end audio people just dont use hardware EQ because its not good for the sound. But digital EQ works totally differently so if you need to change FR response, digital is much better option.

 

Back to Cable, Inductance & Capacitance added in cables will do exactly same as what the hardware EQ does. Which damage/lose/distort the sound. 

 

Without Inductance & Capacitance heavily added but just better material? back to the where this post started, there is pretty much no change in sound, FR, or quality. 

 

Invest your money on something else, not cable.


I am not an engineer, or have done anything related to engineering, and my English is not the first language so there will be many grammatical or vocab errors, but I hope it helps. (Most of the stuff I said above are learnt from golden ears and audio holics) 

I have the stock cable and the Toxic Cable Silver Poisons...There is a clear difference and I, for one, am very glad I made the investment into these cables. As with absolutely everything in audio, YMMV, but I am VERY happy...biggrin.gif

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