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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 459

post #6871 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar3 View Post

If I had to nominate somebody for consistently making the longest friggin' tl;dr posts to exist on Head-Fi, it'd probably have to be IEMCrazy.  Keep up the good work.  biggrin.gif

 

Yea, if every reply was separate IEMCrazy would have a few thousand posts.  undefined

post #6872 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar3 View Post

If I had to nominate somebody for consistently making the longest friggin' tl;dr posts to exist on Head-Fi, it'd probably have to be IEMCrazy.  Keep up the good work.  biggrin.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenthumb View Post

 

Yea, if every reply was separate IEMCrazy would have a few thousand posts.  undefined

 

LOL, thanks guys beerchug.gif

 

By word count, I'm a Headphonius Supremus in disguise ph34r.gif

post #6873 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post
LOL, thanks guys beerchug.gif

 

By word count, I'm a Headphonius Supremus in disguise ph34r.gif

 

 

Just from the quality of your posts, you're already a Headphoneus Supremus in my book.smily_headphones1.gif

post #6874 of 37370

x50!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar3 View Post

If I had to nominate somebody for consistently making the longest friggin' tl;dr posts to exist on Head-Fi, it'd probably have to be IEMCrazy.  Keep up the good work.  biggrin.gif

post #6875 of 37370

If I had to choose, and I'm glad I don't have to, it would definitely be the HD650s.  Around the house with the MacBookAir and the E17, the HE400's are amazing.. I'll even take naps with the HE400's plugged directly into my iPod or iPhone. I love having the HD650, HE400 and v-moda M80 in the house. Just need a full size closed can to finish off.

On the DAC front, the DLIII is far too big for my desk. Same width as the Lyr but 3x deeper.  I have a line on a used BiFrost (same seller that I got my Lyr from).  The fancy tin box that my FiiO E10 came in houses my Cash$Stash. $20 here and there adds up over time and I can cover off a used BiFrost. (don't tell the wife :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

Glad you got the setup you were hoping for for the HD650s...you guessed accurately that they'd really come to life with a proper setup after all!  Now you just need to save up or sell relatives to servitude to get another DLIII.  

 

Yeah, that combo with HD650 is an extremely addictive drug.  It's often hard to remove them from your head and quit.  biggrin.gif  Have you decided if you think they're truly better than HE-400 yet, or still equal but different using the same gear?

 

post #6876 of 37370

IEMCrazy:

 

Like I said, only the insulation can be improved. If the "1s and 0s" are different from the source when they arrive, then the cable is simply not working correctly/flawed. It's not a quality issue but a working or not issue. If it is an analog waveform, the insulation can be improved to help battle electrical noise from the computer and/or inside the cable with the electricity traveling alongside, thus reducing the amount of packet loss, etc (distortion of the waveform). But, this is the insulation, the quality/material the cable is made from would not affect the sound, as it is digital.

 

(correct me if I'm wrong; I'm open to learning but this is what my technological knowledge tells me)

post #6877 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by weitn View Post

 

The actually cable looks nicer than in the photos. The mix of silver and copper color make it looks nicer. The joint on connectors felt sturdy. Definitely done by someone who has been doing it for many many times. The heat shrink used felt like good quality heat shrink and two layers of heat shrink are used for each joint. The cable also don't get tangle due to the smooth plastic jacket (not sure the make of the jacket, probably teflon or something), the cable just glide around each other. I always look out for value for money product and this is definitely one of them.

 

If you think it is then fine... But personally £150 for a cable IMO is not good value for money at all... Cables are appalingly overpriced. £50 would be about all I would pay personally.

post #6878 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

 

If you think it is then fine... But personally £150 for a cable IMO is not good value for money at all... Cables are appalingly overpriced. £50 would be about all I would pay personally.

 

Mine cost more because of the extra adapter. The 8ft SPC cable with Viablue jack 6.5mm jack alone is £95 ($146). The 6ft SPC cable with Viablue jack 6.5mm jack alone is £80 ($123). Most of the time, I only use up to 4 ft of the cable because my Lyr is located behind my laptop. I never fully use all the cable length. I got the 8 ft cable because it is only £15 difference compared to the 6ft cable. I got the cable with 4 pin XLR because I planning to upgrade to Schiit statement amp when it come out end of this year. That's the reason for the XLR. I could have easily get a $10 adapter cable from amazon but at last I went ahead with the Toxic Cables SPC adapter anyway. If the difference for the 2 ft cable is £15, 4ft SPC cable with Viablue jack 6.5mm jack would cost only about £65.

post #6879 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor991 View Post

IEMCrazy:

 

Like I said, only the insulation can be improved. If the "1s and 0s" are different from the source when they arrive, then the cable is simply not working correctly/flawed. It's not a quality issue but a working or not issue. If it is an analog waveform, the insulation can be improved to help battle electrical noise from the computer and/or inside the cable with the electricity traveling alongside, thus reducing the amount of packet loss, etc (distortion of the waveform). But, this is the insulation, the quality/material the cable is made from would not affect the sound, as it is digital.

 

(correct me if I'm wrong; I'm open to learning but this is what my technological knowledge tells me)

 

I think there are some physical characteristics at work here that will be benefitted by a higher quality USB cable. Take a look at the signaling and electrical characteristics required to transmit data accordingly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Signaling):

 

 

Quote:
USB signals are transmitted on a twisted-pair data cable with 90Ω ±15% characteristic impedance,[67] labeled D+ and D−. Prior to USB 3.0, these collectively use half-duplex differential signaling to reduce the effects of electromagnetic noise on longer lines. Transmitted signal levels are 0.0 to 0.3 volts for low and 2.8 to 3.6 volts for high in full-bandwidth and low-bandwidth modes, and −10 to 10 mV for low and 360 to 440 mV for high in hi-bandwidth mode. In FS mode, the cable wires are not terminated, but the HS mode has termination of 45 Ω to ground, or 90 Ω differential to match the data cable impedance, reducing interference due to signal reflections. USB 3.0 introduces two additional pairs of shielded twisted wire and new, mostly interoperable contacts in USB 3.0 cables, for them. They permit the higher data rate, and full duplex operation.

 

If the physical characteristics of the cable construction (ie. materials, insulation, wiring configuration, etc) are such that it causes fluctuations of the transmissions' electrical characteristics, you can bet that the sender/receiver will need to go through resending of the packets on error conditions. This would cause your processing of the digital signal to be subject to corrections, which can affect the way the sound might be processed in the digital-to-analog domain before it reaches your ears. This will likely manifest in potentially lower/degraded sound quality.

 

I'm just rationalizing this logically but this is how I always understood the whole cable industry and see SOME sense in it. But whether the materials used are copper, silver, gold, or whatever the hell is used, it shouldn't justify a whole industry that's throwing in "snake oil" to fleece customers of a few extra $$ for some esoteric materials that the cables comprise of. 

 

Sorry for going off-topic... I was reading IEMCrazy's response (well thought out and crafted, albeit a bit longish) and thinking similarly along those lines. But also wanted to throw out that spending $$$ on cables (which I'll admit to doing as well) should be the last thing you do, concentrating on your source and amp first and foremost. (Hey, the assumption is you already have HD650s! biggrin.gif)

post #6880 of 37370

what is the best budget and performance for amp/dac for driving hd650?

how about fiio e17 or dacport lx? is it enough?

post #6881 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by kore View Post

what is the best budget and performance for amp/dac for driving hd650?

how about fiio e17 or dacport lx? is it enough?

 

I think you need to be more specific as to what "budget" is to you.  Budget for one guy might be $500 amp / $500 dac, and $99 dac/amp combo for another.  Too many variables without knowing what you're wanting to spending lol

post #6882 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital-Pride View Post

 

 

Just from the quality of your posts, you're already a Headphoneus Supremus in my book.smily_headphones1.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyVee View Post

 

x50!!

 

Aww, thanks guys, I'm blushing redface.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyVee View Post

If I had to choose, and I'm glad I don't have to, it would definitely be the HD650s.  Around the house with the MacBookAir and the E17, the HE400's are amazing.. I'll even take naps with the HE400's plugged directly into my iPod or iPhone. I love having the HD650, HE400 and v-moda M80 in the house. Just need a full size closed can to finish off.

On the DAC front, the DLIII is far too big for my desk. Same width as the Lyr but 3x deeper.  I have a line on a used BiFrost (same seller that I got my Lyr from).  The fancy tin box that my FiiO E10 came in houses my Cash$Stash. $20 here and there adds up over time and I can cover off a used BiFrost. (don't tell the wife :)

 

Your thoughts seem to be pretty much the same as mine regarding the pair.  The winner is HD650, but I'm glad I don't have to choose.  HD650 is the much more refined one, and post-silver cable and tube upgrades, is the more detailed one.  But recapping what I wrote in a different thread earlier today, if there's one thing HE-400 does very very well it's "big sound".  Most people seem to choose the more refined detailed can for classical, and don't get me wrong, I love HD650 for classical too, and many push to the bright, analytical cans like K70x, HD800 etc when it comes to classical.  I seem to be the opposite here.  For me the lush, dark, enveloping, "big sound" of HE-400 is the default winner for classical.  It's most like a concert hall.  Most halls are wood walled, carpeted/padded chairs, etc.  The result is a dark, lush, not always detailed, and absent much treble sound out in the seats.  So I think HE-400 is a very authentic concert experience while HD650 is more of the up-close stage-level experience for classical.  And I liken K70x (and I imagine HD800, by FR charts) to sound realistic to one of those spiffy new concert halls with the glass/steel dome and the marble walls that the architects rave about and the conductors loathe with passion for the harsh reflective SQ rolleyes.gif

 

But for nearly all other genres but electronic, HD650 wins.  I said it a few pages back, but nothing does hand drums like a 650.  They sound so real! Listening to any African, Latin, Latin jazz, etc with a lot of hand drums is just amazing on HD650. And yes, so is classical for a different mood!

 

 

Don't worry, our lips are sealed about mysterious appearing Bifrosts...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor991 View Post

IEMCrazy:

 

Like I said, only the insulation can be improved. If the "1s and 0s" are different from the source when they arrive, then the cable is simply not working correctly/flawed. It's not a quality issue but a working or not issue. If it is an analog waveform, the insulation can be improved to help battle electrical noise from the computer and/or inside the cable with the electricity traveling alongside, thus reducing the amount of packet loss, etc (distortion of the waveform). But, this is the insulation, the quality/material the cable is made from would not affect the sound, as it is digital.

 

(correct me if I'm wrong; I'm open to learning but this is what my technological knowledge tells me)

I think Twizzler's reply really hit a lot of nails on the head.  Both in terms of digital, and the value of cables.  You're right, it's about quality of the cable, and if you swap the word insulation with shielding you're on the right track.  It's not about electrical insulation which has no effect on interference, but shielded conductors, foil, either wrapped or braided (preferably braided), is what keeps out the interference.  But even then spacing of each conductor matters.  Shielding has no effect at certain positions or distances.  Thus special geometries such as "star quad" arrangements.  It's inherently interference resistant, but only works for 4 conductor cable,  USB has too many leads for its own good as an audio protocol. 

 

But contrary to popular myth, digital is much more complicated than "working or not working" as in "sound or no sound".  It's "working or not working" on an individual sample level.  You can miss 20% of your samples and especially in high res audio, 96khz etc, you would still have such a steady stream of music you would not realize the cable is simply not working 20% of the time.  But what you'd have would be a quality level like a Walkman form the 80's.  And it would be patchy.  Worse at times, better at other times.  Possibly within a second.  And there is the chance of damaged packets, where error correction or mis-representation of a bit changes its value (a peak so damaged it's read as a 0 instead of a 1 because it attenuated too far to be read over the threshold. So if out of a 16 bit word describing the frequency to play one bit is changed, you get the wrong frequency.

 

Since it's analog transmission of those values, all the same things that would affect analog signal affect digital signal just the same.  It just has a different, less overtly detrimental effect.  And while boutique cables for analog exist to intentionally color the sound one way or another, you can't intentionally colore the sound with digital, so it's just a matter of getting a high quality transmission.  The better the quality the better the signal, no specific shift in frequency other than random as a result of signal issues.  Stuff like Belden, mogami, Canare, etc, high quality industrial cable, is certainly as good as it gets.  No special boutique cable needed.  But it's still pricer than the Chinese-made generic of the week. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

 

If you think it is then fine... But personally £150 for a cable IMO is not good value for money at all... Cables are appalingly overpriced. £50 would be about all I would pay personally.

 

The value per dollar (pound) is inherently awful.  That's why it's the finishing touch, as twizzler said, after the rest of the system is set up. That said most of the cost is labor, not materials.  Moon's Blue Dragon for example runs about $200 (USD), but he also sells the materials to build it yourself which come up to about $85 for the same cable.  Most of the price is paying someone who has a clue what to do with a soldering iron biggrin.gif

 

Some brands, however, I won't excuse their outrageous pricing for any reason.

post #6883 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

The value per dollar (pound) is inherently awful.  That's why it's the finishing touch, as twizzler said, after the rest of the system is set up. That said most of the cost is labor, not materials.  Moon's Blue Dragon for example runs about $200 (USD), but he also sells the materials to build it yourself which come up to about $85 for the same cable.  Most of the price is paying someone who has a clue what to do with a soldering iron biggrin.gif

 

That I might actually do. Can you post me a link to where ever that DIY bundle is sold? I would love to upgrade the stock cable on my HD-650's just for looks/quality if nothing else.

post #6884 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleudeciel16 View Post

i hear the 650 is generally known to be slightly warmer than the average set of phones, so i decided the lyr might be a better amp for it than the asgard, so i returned the asgard and ordered a lyr. (with all three sets of tubes they offer so i can see which i like best)  very excited!  anyone here run the 650's through a lyr? (and possibly through the bifrost?)

 

I only have the 6BZ7 and 6N1P stock tubes from Lyr. I prefer 6BZ7 (my favorite budget tubes) over 6N1P due to the sound signature. Bifrost is definitely a good DAC and value for money DAC. I lend my Bifrost to a friend of mine for a while. He was so impressed with it that he bought 2 Bifrost. He used one at home and the other one at his office. One thing I like about using a dedicated dac and tube amp is the ability to customize the sound signature. Between Bifrost and Lyr, I use either copper rca cable (stronger bass) or silver coated rca copper (less bass, bring the beautiful mid, treble and details). I use either 6BZ7 (stronger bass) or Amperex Bugle Boy (extended bass, more details, extended treble, smoother, wider soundstage) on Lyr. I use either Toxic Cables Cryo OCC Silver Plated Copper (more details, mid, extended treble, smoother) or the stock copper cable (stronger bass) with HD650. I use the combination of the above to customize the sound signature that I want depending on my mood. I rarely use the EQ.

post #6885 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

I think Twizzler's reply really hit a lot of nails on the head.  Both in terms of digital, and the value of cables.  You're right, it's about quality of the cable, and if you swap the word insulation with shielding you're on the right track.  It's not about electrical insulation which has no effect on interference, but shielded conductors, foil, either wrapped or braided (preferably braided), is what keeps out the interference.  But even then spacing of each conductor matters.  Shielding has no effect at certain positions or distances.  Thus special geometries such as "star quad" arrangements.  It's inherently interference resistant, but only works for 4 conductor cable,  USB has too many leads for its own good as an audio protocol. 

 

But contrary to popular myth, digital is much more complicated than "working or not working" as in "sound or no sound".  It's "working or not working" on an individual sample level.  You can miss 20% of your samples and especially in high res audio, 96khz etc, you would still have such a steady stream of music you would not realize the cable is simply not working 20% of the time.  But what you'd have would be a quality level like a Walkman form the 80's.  And it would be patchy.  Worse at times, better at other times.  Possibly within a second.  And there is the chance of damaged packets, where error correction or mis-representation of a bit changes its value (a peak so damaged it's read as a 0 instead of a 1 because it attenuated too far to be read over the threshold. So if out of a 16 bit word describing the frequency to play one bit is changed, you get the wrong frequency.

 

Since it's analog transmission of those values, all the same things that would affect analog signal affect digital signal just the same.  It just has a different, less overtly detrimental effect.  And while boutique cables for analog exist to intentionally color the sound one way or another, you can't intentionally colore the sound with digital, so it's just a matter of getting a high quality transmission.  The better the quality the better the signal, no specific shift in frequency other than random as a result of signal issues.  Stuff like Belden, mogami, Canare, etc, high quality industrial cable, is certainly as good as it gets.  No special boutique cable needed.  But it's still pricer than the Chinese-made generic of the week. 

Yeah I see what you're saying. I was meaning to say that buying a USB cable that uses silver vs. copper or something like that pretty much couldn't change anything (besides better transmission) but maybe no one thought that in the first place...I guess this was a bit unnecessary debate but I learned something about digital and cables. Thanks! :)

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