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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 447

post #6691 of 36852

The enameled ends can be stripped down with very fine sandpaper or by carefully scraping it off with a razor blade or pen knife.
 

post #6692 of 36852

From page 5.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken36 View Post

Only with the rights aftermarket cable.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorander View Post

Nothing wrong with the stock cable, just so you know. 
post #6693 of 36852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baxide View Post

The enameled ends can be stripped down with very fine sandpaper or by carefully scraping it off with a razor blade or pen knife.
 

 

Sure. If the wire in question is thicker than a hair, that is. When handling those voice coil wires one must be especially careful to not pull them in any way lest they decide to brake off right at the driver.

post #6694 of 36852
Quote:

Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

 

Just look at the Q701. Inside the shell you also have the stock wiring also. Many people don't know this. So basically you're attaching a $20-$2000 cable upgrade to a cheap wire.I don't know how on earth you can still get a benefit from attaching a cable, but there is some. Less so than going straight to the drivers.

 

I've tested dozens of various types of wires and it's always seemed like the higher capacitance wire sounded warmer and the lower capacitance stuff was brighter. Don't know why or how, but it's interesting.

The Mogami and Canare Starquad i've found are not a good match for the HD-650 IMO. Somehow high capacitance wire always seems to effect the treble of my headphones. I don't like it.

 

Stock wiring on the HD-600 is just really bad to me. ANY $1.50/foot wire is going to be better.

 

Then this idea that a wire has to have a measurable difference for there to be some sort of benefit is non-sense. So many headphones with similar graphs, but none of them could sound any more different.

 

K/Q 70x does something far worse than use stock wiring from the single entry XLR to the second driver.  They plated the headband steel and transmit over that.  No doubt an idea from the same guy that decided that that hairline gauge unshielded 3-conductor cable was actually a good idea.  I'm certain he wasn't part of the driver design team otherwise K70x would sound like Beats biggrin.gif  However what is definitely true is that run length has the single most impact on a cable.  Nasty as plated headbands are at conducting signal, it's only for a foot, so it doesn't have enough space to truly cause major distortion.  The more shameful part is that the end result is the cable-side driver actually gets the signal before the opposite side.  Same vs different cable lengths are a long running debate in stereophile worlds, usually it is concluded as not signficiant in short differences, is significant in long distances (meaning a 20ft cable to your left R channel and a 28ft cable to your right R channel is ok, but a 90ft cable to the movie theater right R cable vs a 140ft cable to the movie theater left R cable is bad.) General advice is to always clip same length unless your pre-pro accounts for channel delays (which most modern AVRs do.)  On Q/K70x we're talking different lengths of 20% of the cable run with a completely different resistance/capacitance for the two drivers!  However an upgrade of the cable in AKGs case is still warranted just to get rid of the crosstalk and interferance from that under-gauge cable.  An HD650 cable, even an HD600 cable would do wonders by contrast. There's isn't about cable magic at all, it's about an under-specced, under-built cable not suitable to the task of carrying audio signals. 

 

Capacitance=warm is effectively a known, documented situation.  Looking at Belden cable specs, it's clear that frequency rolloff occurrs as length and capacitance go up.  What isn't documented is if it affects audio frequencies, or just video frequencies.  That varies by cable.  I was shocked to look at an FR graph on Canare's website yesterday for their Star Quad.   It documents a flat response to ~20Khz, and then begins a steep frequency rolloff.   -5db by 50Khz.  Since some humans can hear between 20-30Khz and HD650 drivers can produce at least up to 40Khz (with its own rolloff), and Redbook format contains data to about 22.05khz (and high res formats reproduce more), that's a documented example of a cable that actually does roll off frequencies that are definitely audible to some humans and thus "is a warm sounding cable."  Keep in mind it's a cable designed for audio use, it is a cable for balanced XLR handheld mics like you commonly see performers holding on-stage, and it is probably tuned that way to filter out background sound and harsh signals picked up by the mic. I think the exotic cable makers put a bad taste in people's mouths for what practical <$2 per foot cable also does.

 

HD600 stock wire is pretty bad, which is probably why Sennheiser actually doesn't sell it anymore.  The HD650 wire is the stock replacement part for HD600 and HD598 now.

 

Headphone graphs are similar because they measure only FR from the driver, not always the acoustic treatment of the housings and pads themselves, and the graph is generally not smoothed over.  The full high-res graph with all the micro-details would be a lot jumpier than the averaged graphs we're seeing.  In Senn's design labs there are probably full high-res graphs that require scrolling for minutes to get through.  We just see the average trend of driver FR and major spikes.  Not the micro-spikes that combine to make the real timbre of the headphone's sound.  Most graphs for other equipment, including cables are the same.  I still believe that if a cable sounds different it must also measure different.  I just disagree that the measurements we get to see are always complete or haven't discounted relevent data because it should be insignificant. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellygoose View Post

even on two identical systems if they believe that there is one (i.e get told that one of the systems is something else); it's called listening bias

 

But $6 you say.. do you have a link or anything ? If i could get my hands on it (or something equivalent) in my country for that cheap then I would definitely want to test it. If nothing else it wouldn't hurt to have a spare cable :-)

 

Two identical systems being the catch...as you say, even two identical model amplifiers won't sound identical.  It's both the frustrating and the fun part of subjective hobbies like audiophiles.  We never have "proof" that reality is indeed real biggrin.gif

 

But there's a lot of cable out there for cheap.  Most of this stuff...Belden, Mogami, Canare, etc is under $2 a foot. You do need connectors for the proprietary headphone, and they run $10 or so usually.  A 1/4" jack for $5 or $10.  Some solder.  I really wish I were handy with a soldering iron... Senn's cable is overpriced.  It's not Audioquest overpriced, but $25 for a thin cable with molded connectors seems a bit much considering the price of OFC (not OCC) cable by the foot.

 

I love this hobby of making my own cables. Once I even tried making one out of lamp cord or whatever else I could find. Didn't turn out well since it's too hard to work with. Maybe for speaker wire it might be OK. For that I'm using whatever is cheap in the audio section of Wal-Mart. I actually don't think I could hear a difference with speaker wires on actual speakers. Maybe.

 

Cat 6 biggrin.gif From my understanding Cat 5 and Cat 6 are the same basically when it comes to the actual wires inside the plastic covering.

 

Actually speaker wire is arguably more important than headphone wire because you're generally dealing with longer runs carrying much more current (a 30W tower speaker is pulling quite a bit more power than the 400mw or so HD650!), over a generally more interference prone environment.  The real difference is the cost of entry to a category of setup in which you'd be able to out-resolve any cable problems with the speakers/room.  With headphones even with HD650 and a decent amp we're already up to what a $5k or so speaker setup and room treatments would give in terms of detail resolution (not in all aspects where cheap speakers will exceed even HD800 in soundstage, air, positioning, etc.) eek.gif

 

Cat 6 has thicker gauge conductors, is designed for longer runs, and is, in general, a PITA to work with in any environment wink.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin Morrow View Post

We are still arguing about cable matters in an HD650 Appreciation Thread? Let's not, let's enjoy the headphone and share our musings about the headphones and it's accessories, which includes cables. Not argue about sound quality different, myths, so on and so forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post


Good advice.
I have observed a curse on this thread, the conversation deviates back to cables 9/10 times. It's been happening for the last year, and probably since it's inception.

 

Like I said before, I think cables appear more in relation to HD650 simply because it's HD650.  Partially lots of people try to "fix" what they think are problems about the laid back sound.  But a lot of it is because it's been around the block long enough to date back to when cable hype was at its peak and it was one of the easiest headphones to experiment with since back then removable cables weren't as common.  Also simply because it's so popular and is known to scale so well with equipment changes that it makes a great target for monitoring if something changed or not because it's so resolving and fast.  And, well, it's a "reference" headphone after all...it's the ideal platform for people to compare other equipment, including cables on.  Other than K70x there's really no other platform as ubiquitous and sensitive to use as a reference platform for testing anything. 

 

I'm not sure it's a bad thing, it's part of the tour de force that is HD650's popularity and legendary fame. Few conversations about anything...other headphones, amps, DACs, PCs, cables, pads, ergonomics, almost no conversation can get more than a few posts into the thread without HD650 being used as the reference point, so it stands to reason that people experimenting with difference in cables would immediately come to the HD650 as their baseline.  Cable discussions here are indeed HD650 appreciation.  It's an appreciation of its performance as a true reference platform more than it's sound signature.   But since it says "reference" right on the box and is sold for studio use...it seems appreciative of its headline feature to me!

 

The summit-fi crowd can bash lowly "mid-fi" HD650 as "muddy" all they want....but even they are comparing their equipment to HD650 as the standard reference cool.gif


Edited by IEMCrazy - 5/18/12 at 7:43am
post #6695 of 36852

What are those little lines on the driver? Not the swirly ones the tiny straight lines you can see if you look carefully about 2mm in length...

 

I noticed this on one of my drivers...

post #6696 of 36852

f6a4e63f_SennDriver.jpg
 

post #6697 of 36852

These are small defects and result maybe from driver handling post production. This is hopefully not hearable.

post #6698 of 36852
I think they are either just artifacts of the picture itself (reflections from light sources).
Or, as pietcux suggested, small damages most likely happening after the production. Could it maybe be caused by excessive dust?
post #6699 of 36852

Hi, 

i just ordered  hd650 cans from amazon.fr 

this thread give me some confidence about future satisfaction

but for that,  i'm seeking a dac amp with good usb that fits well with these cans

chiit, yulong, audiogd...about 600 $

is there any consensus from owners?

thank you

dondiba

ps : then i'll add my own appreciation about musicality...

post #6700 of 36852
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondiba View Post

Hi, 
i just ordered  hd650 cans from amazon.fr 
this thread give me some confidence about future satisfaction
but for that,  i'm seeking a dac amp with good usb that fits well with these cans
chiit, yulong, audiogd...about 600 $
is there any consensus from owners?
thank you
dondiba
ps : then i'll add my own appreciation about musicality...
Consensus will never be reached, especially because there are relatively view people who have done direct comparisons of the many models available.

I personally own an Audio-GD NFB-12, and I'm very content with it.
I don't think you need to immediately spend $600. Spending a little less first on a cheaper unit (like the NFB-12, or FiiO stuff), and upgrading later is in my experience a better method. A lot of these units have a very high resell value, so apart from shipping you'll hardly make a loss through this method.
post #6701 of 36852
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondiba View Post

Hi, 

i just ordered  hd650 cans from amazon.fr 

this thread give me some confidence about future satisfaction

but for that,  i'm seeking a dac amp with good usb that fits well with these cans

chiit, yulong, audiogd...about 600 $

is there any consensus from owners?

thank you

dondiba

ps : then i'll add my own appreciation about musicality...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilpo View Post


Consensus will never be reached, especially because there are relatively view people who have done direct comparisons of the many models available.
I personally own an Audio-GD NFB-12, and I'm very content with it.
I don't think you need to immediately spend $600. Spending a little less first on a cheaper unit (like the NFB-12, or FiiO stuff), and upgrading later is in my experience a better method. A lot of these units have a very high resell value, so apart from shipping you'll hardly make a loss through this method.

 

Consensus?  From audiophiles?  What is this reality you speak of and where can I find it? tongue.gif

 

There are a great many HD650 fans here, and probabably only 20% share any common source hardware.  I'm personally fond of my Schiit Lyr + Schiit Bifrost, however that pair will run you over the $600 limit, and my Bifrost was not purchased with the USB option.  Schiit Asgard & Bifrost would fit the budget though, minus shipping to FR unless there's an EU dealer available.  Schiit is a little US-centric for the moment.

 

Audio-gd has some good ratings overall.  I prefer the warmth added by tubes, especially with HD650, but that's personal preference and others may disagree. HiFiMan makes a nice looking hybrid amp, the HF-5 that's worth a look, but I have no personal experience with it.   If you want to go on a really tight budget you can look at Objective 2 & ODAC USB.  It's a DIY kit, however I believe there's a vendor in the UK selling pre-assembled models.  O2+ODAC in one enclosure is going to be available in the next week or two by the store selling pre-assembled ones in the US, i'm sure they'll be available from the UK shortly as well.  O2 isn't the best feeling amp in the world, and it's a dead-neutral amp, so if you like a warmer sound, it may not suit you, but performance-wise it's a very solid performer including with HD650.

post #6702 of 36852

what had happened to this thread?

 

still loving my 650s.

did a listening session last night with my 2245 + 650s.  holy crap did the song Let Down by Radiohead sound freaking incredible.

 

 

just curious, why was it this thread,  the HD650 thread that turned into the frontlines of the cable debate?

post #6703 of 36852
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post


Consensus?  From audiophiles?  What is this reality you speak of and where can I find it? tongue.gif
I believe I found some in Narnia. You should check it out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

There are a great many HD650 fans here, and probabably only 20% share any common source hardware.  I'm personally fond of my Schiit Lyr + Schiit Bifrost, however that pair will run you over the $600 limit, and my Bifrost was not purchased with the USB option.  Schiit Asgard & Bifrost would fit the budget though, minus shipping to FR unless there's an EU dealer available.  Schiit is a little US-centric for the moment.

Audio-gd has some good ratings overall.  I prefer the warmth added by tubes, especially with HD650, but that's personal preference and others may disagree. HiFiMan makes a nice looking hybrid amp, the HF-5 that's worth a look, but I have no personal experience with it.   If you want to go on a really tight budget you can look at Objective 2 & ODAC USB.  It's a DIY kit, however I believe there's a vendor in the UK selling pre-assembled models.  O2+ODAC in one enclosure is going to be available in the next week or two by the store selling pre-assembled ones in the US, i'm sure they'll be available from the UK shortly as well.  O2 isn't the best feeling amp in the world, and it's a dead-neutral amp, so if you like a warmer sound, it may not suit you, but performance-wise it's a very solid performer including with HD650.
I'm personally not such a big fan of Schiit. Haven't heard any of their products, but from what I heard they do take some rather unconventional approaches in terms of engineering. This may result in a colored sound that many people seem to enjoy, but personally I seek transparency above coloration when it comes to source and amping.

My advice is to let the headphones and the recordings (and equalizers/ other DSP's) do the coloration. Far cheaper, and makes it easier for yourself to sleep at night, since you have to worry less about your DAC and amp.
post #6704 of 36852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrbington View Post

just curious, why was it this thread,  the HD650 thread that turned into the frontlines of the cable debate?

 

Welcome to Head-Fi.  Here, EVERY thread eventually turns into the front line of the cable debate.

post #6705 of 36852
Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhar3 View Post

 

Welcome to Head-Fi.  Here, EVERY thread eventually turns into the front line of the cable debate.

 

Cable Nazi.  wink.gif

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