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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 344

post #5146 of 37370

Some open cans have bigger stage than others.
Moreover, some closed (Denon D2000) has bigger stage than open (SR225).

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.F.O.A View Post

wait, i thought open headphones, generally have big soundstage, no?

 



 



 

post #5147 of 37370

I may have asked this before but I don't remember any answer. If the HD650s are considered having emphasized bass slightly, and the HD600's neutral, why is it that Innerfidelity graphs show the HD650 looking significantly more flat than the HD600s, particularly in bass? If ideally flat would be a perfect straight line, then the HD650 is a much more neutral headphone than the HD600, in terms of bass at least.

 

I see people saying the HD650s have emphasized bass, yet even they drop off below neutral below 50hz. The HD600s look even more unnaturally recessed in bass with massive drop-off below 90hz. So basically people are calling the HD650 as slightly bass heavy, yet they're empirically bass weak???

 

What's going on here? Are all of Tyll's measurements grossly wrong... or could people here be underestimating what neutral bass is?

 

Edit: And from a "subjective" standpoint, I never have and still don't see anything particularly emphasized about the HD650 bass while listening to literally all genres of music (and movies). For pretty much everything I play on it, the bass sounds nearly perfect.


Edited by ac500 - 12/12/11 at 7:50pm
post #5148 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post


 

What's going on here? Are all of Tyll's measurements grossly wrong... or could people here be underestimating what neutral bass is?



Most people think Hi-Fi sounds like a lot of treble, mids, and slightly recessed bass.  Most people don't know what flat sounds like.

post #5149 of 37370

Well, instead of purchasing the NFB-12, I just purchased the Yulong D100 (Total $404.99) not much more than the NFB-5.

 

My logic, If I'm going to buy the HD650s might as well buy something to compliment it instead of wondering what a better -------- would sound with it. So instead of half assing it, I got the D100 to calm my urge of upgrading for a couple of months.....


Edited by Flipsidiaz - 12/12/11 at 8:36pm
post #5150 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

My HD650 (latest version) is brilliant for classical music... you just have to boost the treble or else violinists sound like they were stuffed in a foam padded wood box.



ugh, EQ....every time I do it, it just sounds really unnatural and muffed up. Highs are a crucial part of band and choral music too....but I don't wanna sacrifice having more treble for the performance in other genres. I guess I may have to keep my options open for an open balanced can that is succeeds for any genre. Guess that's just really hard given my price range. I wish I could test out someone's HD650. I'm going to a meet in January and a couple of people will have them but I might have to make a purchase sooner than that now.

post #5151 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipsidiaz View Post

Well, instead of purchasing the NFB-12, I just purchased the Yulong D100 (Total $404.99) not much more than the NFB-5.

 

My logic, If I'm going to buy the HD650s might as well buy something to compliment it instead of wondering what a better -------- would sound with it. So instead of half assing it, I got the D100 to calm my urge of upgrading for a couple of months.....


I'll definitely be interested in your thoughts on the D100

 

post #5152 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

I may have asked this before but I don't remember any answer. If the HD650s are considered having emphasized bass slightly, and the HD600's neutral, why is it that Innerfidelity graphs show the HD650 looking significantly more flat than the HD600s, particularly in bass? If ideally flat would be a perfect straight line, then the HD650 is a much more neutral headphone than the HD600, in terms of bass at least.

 

I see people saying the HD650s have emphasized bass, yet even they drop off below neutral below 50hz. The HD600s look even more unnaturally recessed in bass with massive drop-off below 90hz. So basically people are calling the HD650 as slightly bass heavy, yet they're empirically bass weak???

 

What's going on here? Are all of Tyll's measurements grossly wrong... or could people here be underestimating what neutral bass is?

 

Edit: And from a "subjective" standpoint, I never have and still don't see anything particularly emphasized about the HD650 bass while listening to literally all genres of music (and movies). For pretty much everything I play on it, the bass sounds nearly perfect.


I suppose that's because some people only attribute the differences they hear to frequency response - while there is much more to sound impressions than a few dB here or there IMHO. I've never thought that the HD650 has more bass than the HD600, but I always thought that it felt fuller, bigger, stronger somehow. I don't know the reason. Could it be driver design ? Diaphragm material ? Diaphragm extension ? Diaphragm mass ? Housing design ? No idea. 

 

 

post #5153 of 37370

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayaTlab View Post

I suppose that's because some people only attribute the differences they hear to frequency response - while there is much more to sound impressions than a few dB here or there IMHO.

 

Exactly.  And also because those measurements don't really mean jack.  But while you're looking at them, ac500, try this one too, you've got the decay of those frequencies.  Also, you cannot have laid back treble without hearing more low-end, it's all interrelated.  

post #5154 of 37370

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

To add to the confusion, wasn't there a guy saying the NFB12 amp was good but the DAC wasn't? Such inverting and conflicting reviews, it's... annoying to try to research anything around here.

 

I'm still looking for an improved amp for my NFB12 although I'm pretty happy with it after EQing. Every time I ask for suggestions though for solid state amps the discussion almost always leads to everyone trying to convince me to buy tubes, which I said 100 times I don't want now or ever.


What exactly are you looking for?  There's a lot of SS amps discussed on head-fi, the V200, Beta22, etc.  

 

post #5155 of 37370

Well my budget for an amp is ~$400 at most. I'm looking for an amp in that price range that complements the HD650 and is much much better than the NFB-12 amp. I mean I paid $250 for the NFB12, so I'd expect paying $200-$400 for a dedicated amp should be a huge upgrade. Even better would be a DAC/Amp combo in which case I could sell the NFB-12.

 

I suppose the NFB-10se was a pretty good option I was told about (over $400, but justifiable since it has a DAC and I could sell my NFB12), but I sometimes get the impression people recommend DAC/Amps just for the DAC and assume you have some esoteric $10,000,000 vintage tube amplifier with magic tube pixie dust and power line conditioners. Is the NFB-10se amp trulygreat SS amp for the HD650 (I would not be using it balanced most likely)? And if not, what else are my options in the ~$400 range for amps or $500-$600 for DAC/Amps?

 

 

Also, the treble is definitely laid back independent of the low end. Certain high frequencies cannot be heard very well if at all, compared to for example an SRH940 which emphasizes them. Like I've said before, a good example is firing the M1911 in Battlefield 3. You can't hear the high pitch crack on the HD650 unequalized, or the metal scraping sound when reloading - well you can, but it's extremely quiet. When adding 10+khz, it sounds correct, and this improves violin and guitar music immensely as well.

 

> ugh, EQ....every time I do it, it just sounds really unnatural and muffed up. Highs are a crucial part of band and choral music too....but I don't wanna sacrifice having more treble for the performance in other genres. I guess I may have to keep my options open for an open balanced can that is succeeds for any genre. 

 

As for equalizing "muddying" things, I haven't really detected that yet. Maybe I will in the future but so far I'm happy.

 

Keep in mind I had a similar thought process as you, and I ended up buying an Audio Technica AD2000, which has less recessed treble and similar sound quality all around. I found an equalized HD650 to be superior in every way to the unequalized AD2000's. While the AD2000 has a better natural sound signature probably except for somewhat weak bass, the HD650 quality is just as good or better, bass is better IMO, and treble was at least just as good when equalized so you can actually hear it.

 

So I really don't know if the perfect headphone exists at all. I know the HD650 equalized is so close, that I'm currently very happy. What I'm not happy about is when traveling I can't take my EQ with me because my laptop doesn't support EQ while my desktop does. Of course it would be nice to find a headphone identical to the HD650 with just a bit more treble automatically, but I don't know if it exists. 


Edited by ac500 - 12/13/11 at 4:55am
post #5156 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post
1.

I may have asked this before but I don't remember any answer. If the HD650s are considered having emphasized bass slightly, and the HD600's neutral, why is it that Innerfidelity graphs show the HD650 looking significantly more flat than the HD600s, particularly in bass? If ideally flat would be a perfect straight line, then the HD650 is a much more neutral headphone than the HD600, in terms of bass at least.

2.

I see people saying the HD650s have emphasized bass, yet even they drop off below neutral below 50hz. The HD600s look even more unnaturally recessed in bass with massive drop-off below 90hz. So basically people are calling the HD650 as slightly bass heavy, yet they're empirically bass weak???

3.

Edit: And from a "subjective" standpoint, I never have and still don't see anything particularly emphasized about the HD650 bass while listening to literally all genres of music (and movies). For pretty much everything I play on it, the bass sounds nearly perfect.

1.

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=853&graphID[]=573&graphID[]=703

Big difference in the bass response between the HD650 and HD600. Almost 6db at one point.

 

2.

Fletcher munson curves are why the bass drops off. People hear emphasized bass, microphones don't*. It approaches an even level the closer we get to the threshold o' pain (well, just under).

Headphones are made to compensate, which is why they're never ruler flat in measurements.

 

3.

Had my pair for around a month. They sounded bloated, unnatural, clumsy and while it could pick up some decent detail it failed to represent it well ('veiled' is the go to word for that, I think) through my Benchmark DAC1. They're freaking comfortable though, i'll give them that much!
 

 

post #5157 of 37370

Tetsuma, have you tried the HD600 before?

What kind of sound do you prefer?

post #5158 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetsuma View Post

1.

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=853&graphID[]=573&graphID[]=703

Big difference in the bass response between the HD650 and HD600. Almost 6db at one point.

 

2.

Fletcher munson curves are why the bass drops off. People hear emphasized bass, microphones don't*. It approaches an even level the closer we get to the threshold o' pain (well, just under).

Headphones are made to compensate, which is why they're never ruler flat in measurements.

 

3.

Had my pair for around a month. They sounded bloated, unnatural, clumsy and while it could pick up some decent detail it failed to represent it well ('veiled' is the go to word for that, I think) through my Benchmark DAC1. They're freaking comfortable though, i'll give them that much!
 

 


This measurement may have been made with an older version, that may explain the differences with Tyll's graphs. Just an hypothesis.

post #5159 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayaTlab View Post


This measurement may have been made with an older version, that may explain the differences with Tyll's graphs. Just an hypothesis.



Could be. The age of the earpads may have been significantly different. I'll see if I can get fresh measurements at some point.  I always thought the 600 and 650 sounded quite similar.

post #5160 of 37370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens View Post



Could be. The age of the earpads may have been significantly different. I'll see if I can get fresh measurements at some point.  I always thought the 600 and 650 sounded quite similar.


I always felt the same, at least as far as FR goes. I feel the HD650 may be a little more "liquid" sounding, and quite fuller / substantial, but not by a huge margin. Do we know why speakers / headphones with a similar FR may sound quite different ? I've always wondered why, for example, as a generalisation, full-range speakers can give a bigger sound than smaller bookshelves, while still having a similar FR. What changes in the sound wave ?

 

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