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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 321

post #4801 of 36890
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor991 View Post

Does using a USB to S/PDIF converter fix most of these problems being argued about?


No.  A converter simply changes the format.   As a USB device, it still operates isochronous adaptive mode where the computer controls the flow of data.  Some expensive converters have anti-jitter capabilities.

 

The better and more cost effective approach is to purchase a modern DAC with good jitter rejection.

 

post #4802 of 36890
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapskateaudio View Post

Two chips, exactly the same design, different performance capabilities, because digital is digital, in an analog world.

 

 

Yes, the bit stream is identical.  The difference is timing and how the receiving DAC copes with it.  That is, turning the digital to analog can provide different audible results.

 

The only physical difference I can think of is that Toslink inherently breaks any physical electrical connection between the host computer and DAC, stopping the transmission of electrical noise.  Of course better non-Toslink designs include a transformer to provide galvanic isolation, thus breaking the connection.
 

 

post #4803 of 36890
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post



haha that would hold true and have some weight if this wasn't a headphone forum and we were not talking about headphones. Get a life and argue on twitter.

 

Or even better, read Kant.   


It holds weight anywhere because anywhere I go we are still human. I have to say, you take the cake for making the least sense of anyone I've met on head-fi so far. . . 

 

idk. I guess it just comes down to making ridiculous claims without any real facts behind and that's never going to change. 

 

Personally I would worry more about how the sound is certainly being degraded if you upsample rather than (probably) inaudible jitter. rolleyes.gif You have some strange priorities. 

 

 

 

post #4804 of 36890
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

Yeah it's like saying arithmetic is arithmetic, in a human world. 1+1=2, even though people may perform addition using different parts of the brain, and at different speeds. But no matter what, it still doesn't change the result. 1+1 will always be 2. Always. No matter how fast or slow or strange you solve the problem, as long as it is done mathematically (=logically), the results are always the same. The only difference is computers don't make unnoticed mistakes like humans do.


I agree with the first part, digital in the digital world is always exact. In the analog (real) world digital is an abstraction of analog energy.

 

Because it is analog energy it *can* be corrupted by analog interference, just being digital doesn't magically make electricity or light immune to interference.

 

Have you ever used a digital antennae and seen the weird blocks that can show up if the signal isn't right? Same thing goes for mini-DV tape, which if damaged can have digital artifacts in it that show up as little blocks of color.

 

 

 


Edited by cheapskateaudio - 11/5/11 at 7:12pm
post #4805 of 36890

How do the digital signals get through with no electricity? How is that even physically possible?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapiti View Post

 

Yes, the bit stream is identical.  The difference is timing and how the receiving DAC copes with it.  That is, turning the digital to analog can provide different audible results.

 

The only physical difference I can think of is that Toslink inherently breaks any physical electrical connection between the host computer and DAC, stopping the transmission of electrical noise.  Of course better non-Toslink designs include a transformer to provide galvanic isolation, thus breaking the connection.
 

 



 

post #4806 of 36890


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor991 View Post

How do the digital signals get through with no electricity? How is that even physically possible?
 



 



Toslink is light.

post #4807 of 36890

Ah ok that totally slipped my mind, fiber optics. Oops! Is all S/PDIF (Toslink and Optical) light/fiber? Is optical as well as toslink? And so would the electrical noise from USB in a converter/dongle get through in the light signals?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapskateaudio View Post


 



Toslink is light.



 


Edited by jtaylor991 - 11/5/11 at 9:34pm
post #4808 of 36890

Woo!  HD650 FTW!

post #4809 of 36890

jtaylor99: There's something called an optical isolator which converts electrical signal to light, then light back to electrical. It serves to isolate one part of a circuit from another to eliminate electrical interference.

 

>Because it is analog energy it *can* be corrupted by analog interference, just being digital doesn't magically make electricity or light immune to interference. Have you ever used a digital antennae and seen the weird blocks that can show up if the signal isn't right? 

 

True, you can lose data. That should be obvious. When transmitting a live stream of information where for the most part only one direction of communication is possible (like satellite TV), there's not much you can do about data loss. Data loss is inevitable across large distances, but that's one of the amazing things about digital technology - it can self-identify errors and correct for them (redundancy, detection and request re-transfer, etc.).

 

In two-way communication - like the internet for example - there are many tiny communications in both directions every moment, constantly error correcting as necessary, etc. to make 100% sure you get the information without any error loss. And it works. Your entire computer would simply fail to work if there were not ways of sending information from one point to another with ZERO error (to astronomical certainty).

 

What's also interesting to note is related to your "weird blocks" observation. When such a case of digital data-loss occurs, you'll notice that what does get through is complete garbage. It's not "blurry" or "static-y", it's just gone or scrambled completely. If you understand the underlying digital structure / algorithms, it makes sense exactly what these "blocky things" are you see, and similarly it also makes sense what happens when you have data loss with audio. As you might expect, audio data loss does not sound nice. It does not just sound "blurry" or "static-y" or "less bass" or anything like that. Corrupted audio is a horrible screeching sound (or just silence/skipping, depending on the type of corruption).

 

So if you're hearing terrible screeching sounds, or random skipping from your DAC, I'd say you should give a USB cable replacement a try. Otherwise, I really don't know how else I can describe how absurd it is to think that switching cables will make any difference. 


Edited by ac500 - 11/5/11 at 9:56pm
post #4810 of 36890


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor991 View Post

Ah ok that totally slipped my mind, fiber optics. Oops! Is all S/PDIF (Toslink and Optical) light/fiber? Is optical as well as toslink? And so would the electrical noise from USB in a converter/dongle get through in the light signals?
 



 

 

It's safe to assume that unless something is failing in your computer the signal should be uncorrupted up to the USB header. 

post #4811 of 36890

That still doesn't really answer my question, sorry. Does the interference in the original electrical signal get converted into light as well as everything else, still corrupting the data? Maybe that's more cut down to the point and phrased better.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

jtaylor99: There's something called an optical isolator which converts electrical signal to light, then light back to electrical. It serves to isolate one part of a circuit from another to eliminate electrical interference.



 

post #4812 of 36890

The signal itself isn't a concern, since it's digital. It is perfect 100% accurate (except in absurd rare cases like if you took a scissors to your USB cable). Again: Digital error is NOT a problem.

 

Optical isolation only removes the concern that power noise (USB provides electrical power as well) can somehow "leak" into the DAC and amplification circuit as well. Even if the digital signal itself is 100% perfect (except in really rare cases), the "worry" is that the USB power line (completely unrelated to the signal itself) will carry a noise that makes its way into the sound output circuit. Again, this shouldn't happen with proper design, and optical isolation is one way of accomplishing this.


Edited by ac500 - 11/5/11 at 10:09pm
post #4813 of 36890

OK I see so there is no electricity in the light signal anyway so it can't leak and it doesn't actually mess with the digital signal but canleak in and affect the sound. Interesting..

post #4814 of 36890

Read this, part 1 - 3. You won't even want your HD650's anymore.... http://www.headfonia.com/hd800-journal-part-1/

post #4815 of 36890
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin Morrow View Post

Read this, part 1 - 3. You won't even want your HD650's anymore.... http://www.headfonia.com/hd800-journal-part-1/



A headphone that costs $1500 sounds better than one costing $350? Imagine that.

 

Not everyone can drop $1.5 grand on a set of headphones. The fact that he even has to compare them makes me happy to have the HD650s.

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