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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 2489

post #37321 of 37369

Took advantage of the Sonarworks holiday pricing offer and bought the headphone plug-in. Been playing around with this, using my HD-700s.

 

I recall reading on this thread that there is a "special" HD-650 configuration that is not generally available from their website.

 

Do I have that right? @Solrighal ... anyone?

post #37322 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyListener View Post
 

@castleofargh

 

Could you explain why weaker amps with higher impedance phones generally provide an overall thin sound, whereas more powerful amps generally provide a fuller, weightier, and richer sound?  I've noticed this with my weaker Dragonfly and Fiio amps versus the Magni 2.  More power can't simply mean more overall volume.  There must be more to it than that.

 

Great dampening can give a leaner and tighter sound especially in the bass and sometimes bass is emphasized/fatter when the headphone is used on an amp that has higher distortion.

post #37323 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob80b View Post
 

Oddly in this day and age and with such a popular phone no one has a definitive answer? :confused:

Sennheiser may not divulge anything but maybe Moon Audio can give us  an insight...probably just as easy enough to contact them.   https://www.moon-audio.com/contacts  

...maybe they just "discontinued" carrying them as in protest to lost sales with the success of the $200 HD6xx and the pending (as of today) 46,850 Massdrop user requests. :ph34r: 

 

this is more likely

post #37324 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post
 

Took advantage of the Sonarworks holiday pricing offer and bought the headphone plug-in. Been playing around with this, using my HD-700s.

 

I recall reading on this thread that there is a "special" HD-650 configuration that is not generally available from their website.

 

Do I have that right? @Solrighal ... anyone?

 

Yes mate. Send me a PM with your email and I'll send it to you.

post #37325 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidA View Post

I can use my Fiio X3ii to drive the HD-650 to a good listening level and its decent but will not be as nice as a bit behind dedicate desktop amp like the BH Crack
Isnt that a DAP?
post #37326 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric Yong View Post


Isnt that a DAP?

Yes its a DAP, but it was just to say that you don't really need a portable amp unless your phone or DAP is really under powered, like my Galaxy S5.

post #37327 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidA View Post

Yes its a DAP, but it was just to say that you don't really need a portable amp unless your phone or DAP is really under powered, like my Galaxy S5.
Mine's a note 5.So do i need a amp or a dap?
post #37328 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric Yong View Post


Mine's a note 5.So do i need a amp or a dap?

If it gets loud enough for you then I wouldn't spend for the amp.  The S5 is really weak, even at full volume it can't get the HD-650 to my listening level of 64-72db.  About the only headphones that the S5 can drive decently are my V-Moda XS, EL8, and Momentum.

post #37329 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric Yong View Post


Mine's a note 5.So do i need a amp or a dap?


It really depends on your preference.

FiiO X3II is capable of 2.5 Vrms into 300 Ohm which is a lot compared to the (if I recall correctly) 0.7 Vrms of the Note 5

FiiO A3 is just a amp wth similar power to X3II.

 

If you have the money, you can get a FiiO A5 or E12, those have a very clean and punchy sound and tons of power and gain in case you need it sometime.

post #37330 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyListener View Post
 

@castleofargh

 

I wasn't implying any conclusions, or stating that power is the sole cause.  I'm fully aware of correlation vs causation.  I was simply stating my limited observation, and also from what I've read of most others' observations - that more powerful amps, when paired with higher impedance cans, tend to produce a fuller, rounded sound vs weaker amps that tend to produce a thinner, leaner sound.

 

I got the impression from your posts that you think power output has no effect on sound quality.  Is that correct?  I apologize if I misunderstood your posts.

 

My personal theory on the matter is that lower frequencies require more power to produce a certain SPL, whereas higher frequencies require less power to produce same SPL.  Therefore, weaker amps are tuned to sound loud by using more of that power for higher frequiencies and less power for lower frequencies.  The idea is to make it sound loud, not necessarily balanced.  Amps with more power on tap are tuned to sound more balanced because there is plenty of power to go around for the entire frequency spectrum.  Just a theory.  Manufacturers want their relatively weak amps to sound loud, as louder amps sell more than quieter amps.

 

soz I skipped your post last time. and now release the power kraken! :wink_face:

 

 of course I don't imply that a change in power will not change the sound. power being a relation of V I and R(and phase but that usually won't change things in a meaningful way), so of course a change in power or lacking in I or V will have a very direct impact on sound.

no what I imply is that you have 2 main states for the circuit formed by the amp and headphone:

-1/ not enough of something. that could be expressed as saying that the amp is limiting current when it should always be the headphone, or that the amp is limiting the voltage when you should limit it with the volume knob to get your desired loudness.

-2/ enough V and I for a desired loudness. that can be expressed as saying that you send a given voltage to the headphone when you set the loudness, and the impedance of the headphone is what opposes the current the most and determines the current flow in the amp/headphone circuit. this is the nominal use of a headphone, we could add some idea of impedance ratio for the exact electrical damping we desire, but basically the amp is not limiting the headphone in power for your set loudness.

 

and that's about it. there isn't a third option where somehow gremlins send more current at a given voltage into 300ohm.  I took my sony A15 which is the weakest stuff I've ever owned in my life, measured it with a 300ohm load at a given loudness to check that I wasn't clipping anything or distorting like crazy(I wouldn't have to if sony was to give power into a few loads at 1% THD but hey, sony).

so now I know that even if it's not the cleanest signal, I can use that voltage into 300ohm with a test tone even if it's full scale and so I do just that and plug my hd650. I hook my multimeter, measure the voltage, look at the output of the headphone with a microphone into a RTA to get at least variations of loudness at that frequency and note the value I get. I change my multimeter to get the current value and note what I get.

now I take my O2 and put it between the sony A15 and the hd650, I now use an amp with more than 100 times the maximum power into 300ohm. I would consider that a little significant. ^_^

well I set my O2 to get the same voltage I had on the A15 alone(pretty annoying to get as close as possible with a knob). without surprise that gives me the same loudness at the frequency of the test tone. I change the multimeter to measure current and yet again I get the same value. well to be honest when I say same values, the DB can't hope to do better than 0.1db accuracy with my system, and voltage can't do better than 0.001V so I can't claim that I set the loudness perfectly identical and get perfectly identical results, but within what I can measure with confidence, I do get the same results. 

and I'm doing this because I don't want to be the jerk who makes claims only based on his assumptions(even if my assumptions here are ohm's law, something solid as a rock).

 

now if I push my A15 to max loudness(it's a euro version so even worst than what it already is), I reach a point where distortions increase a good deal into 300ohm. that's why it's important to have specs for 1%THD and not just max power. but basically I can't get very loud with my A15. so for quiet listening I decide the voltage setting, the current flow is enough, I'm in case -2/ . but if I want to listen louder, the sony will fail me where the O2 won't and I'm getting in case -1/. that's the practical difference in power between those 2 devices into 300ohm and more. I can go louder with the O2.

don't get me wrong, when I RMAA or whatever I don't get the same results and the same exact sound, but that's for many reasons, a simple one that come to mind would be that... they're 100% different devices with different components, different topology, impedance, the sony is a class D amp etc.

it's faster to make a list of what isn't different as it would be a very very short list. so why in the name of the holy Stevie Wonder would I cherry pick power and decide it's a legitimate reason for me to prefer the O2? are we doing logical lottery? I pick a random reason and wait to see if by accident I was right all along?

 if power was such an obvious answer that cures of everything from subs, to soundstage not forgeting my cousin's hernia, why aren't we all using speaker amps? maybe because it's not that overly simplistic.

I rant but it's not against you, it's just that I'm stuck in the groundhog day of power misconceptions on this topic and some days, it's depressing.

 

about your hypothesis, that will mostly depend on the type of amp, not that much on power as an independent variable IMO. and when a specific design struggles to keep the subs or the trebles at the same amplitude and/or linearity into a given load, a higher max power from the amp won't necessarily solve the issue. you won't have a gremlins inside the box looking at the frequency response and opening a pipe full of extra power just for the sub area, when some empty cap, some phase or impedance relation(or many other reasons) ends up being the actual cause for the altered frequency response. if an electrical cause creates a change in the signal, it's likely to be here to stay, like how much treble roll off you'll get from a given tube into a given design and a given load. what you experience is a different amp and again you just decide to link power and those experiences, when it's so simple to leave it at "I tried 2 amps, one had better low end". we don't have to make up reasons when we don't know. it's ok not to know and leave listening experiences in the domain of subjective opinion.

post #37331 of 37369

Just wondering if anybody has experience with the Chord Mojo and the HD650.  I just got the 650 to try out and, surprisingly, the Mojo doesn't seem to give it much heft.  It actually sounds a bit thin and the good low end that the 650 is known for doesn't seem to be there.   I didn't know the 650 was this hard to drive.   I will try them on my Feliks Elise tube amp tonight, and see if there is improvement.  It should be much better, but am disappointed that the Mojo doesn't seem up to the task. 

post #37332 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaCuffia View Post
 

Just wondering if anybody has experience with the Chord Mojo and the HD650.  I just got the 650 to try out and, surprisingly, the Mojo doesn't seem to give it much heft.  It actually sounds a bit thin and the good low end that the 650 is known for doesn't seem to be there.   I didn't know the 650 was this hard to drive.   I will try them on my Feliks Elise tube amp tonight, and see if there is improvement.  It should be much better, but am disappointed that the Mojo doesn't seem up to the task. 

 

I have heard the HD650 with the Mojo and it sounded a little bit dark and struggling with dynamics.  I'm pretty sure that you will hear a huge improvement with your Feliks Elise amp. 

post #37333 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaCuffia View Post
 

Just wondering if anybody has experience with the Chord Mojo and the HD650.  I just got the 650 to try out and, surprisingly, the Mojo doesn't seem to give it much heft.  It actually sounds a bit thin and the good low end that the 650 is known for doesn't seem to be there.   I didn't know the 650 was this hard to drive.   I will try them on my Feliks Elise tube amp tonight, and see if there is improvement.  It should be much better, but am disappointed that the Mojo doesn't seem up to the task. 

Agree that the Mojo will not drive the HD-650 but its funny that the Hugo which has the same specs works for the HD-800 and HE-560 quite well.  I haven't tried the Hugo with the HD-650 since its putting together 2 warmer sounding devices so it would be overly warm to me.  I tried an Elise w/ stock tubes a few weeks ago and with the HD-650 it is overly warm and not a good pairing IMO and also to the owner of the Elise.

post #37334 of 37369
Well, it obviously sounds much better with the Elise than with the Mojo. This 650 seems very picky with amplification though. There is a bit of thickness with the Elise. But what I really don't like about the 650 is the vice like clamping force. I always hear about how comfortable they are but I have to disagree unless the clamping tends to lessen with use. The 598 is actually much more comfortable.
post #37335 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaCuffia View Post

Well, it obviously sounds much better with the Elise than with the Mojo. This 650 seems very picky with amplification though. There is a bit of thickness with the Elise. But what I really don't like about the 650 is the vice like clamping force. I always hear about how comfortable they are but I have to disagree unless the clamping tends to lessen with use. The 598 is actually much more comfortable.

Extend the arms a bit longer and I find they don't clamp

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