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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 234

post #3496 of 37349

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambusanna View Post

I LOVE the HD650.  I love everything about them... The highs of the HD650 are perfect for me! The mids are ASTONISHING. The lows are sooo deep like a closed can. I just put these on and I forget for a long time that I even have them on. The HD650 are definitely more comfortable than the DT990 600 ohms. The top padded part just felt too heavy on the DT990 after a while. Not with the HD650!!! They are sooo light. I also love how the wires run down from both drivers as opposed to just one in most other cans. The weight of the HD650 wire is evenly dispersed on both sides. ALLLLL these little things sum up to produce a luxurious set of headphones that are just mind blowing!

 

 

 

 

Absolutely... one of the reviews of the HE-500's on another forum report that with the right setup, the HD650s (assume new version) sound better than the HE-500's - but, that sound quality from the HD650's comes at the price of pretty pricey setup.

 

 

 

 

 

post #3497 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by colmustard View Post

I think if you a/b'd my pro 900's with the stock cable and blue dragon cable you might change your mind about how much of a difference a cable can make (not always the case ofc) L3000.gif



We're OT, let's take it to PMs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradofan2 View Post


Yes... a big improvement in the sound.  Search through the HD650 and Senn threads and you'll find more than you want to know about the improvement in their sound.  But... in a nutshell... they no longer have the Senn "veil" and sound a whole lot brighter, clearer, and faster - more like the HD600's, or even Grados. 

 



Does Sennheirser admit to this?

post #3498 of 37349

Curious, did Sennheiser ever say there was a veil? confused.gif

post #3499 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImitationOfLife View Post

Curious, did Sennheiser ever say there was a veil? confused.gif


Not to my knowledge. 

 

Perhaps the veil and the big improvement are nothing more than forum anecdotes.

 

post #3500 of 37349

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 View PostAbsolutely... one of the reviews of the HE-500's on another forum report that with the right setup, the HD650s (assume new version) sound better than the HE-500's - but, that sound quality from the HD650's comes at the price of pretty pricey setup.

 

 

I thought that Headphonia review was really silly.  They caveat by saying the HD650s off a $2K amp like the Zana Deux could best the HE-500s in some areas.  Seriously?  Before someone invested $2K or more in an HD650 rig, why wouldn't anyone in their right mind consider better cans--to get even farther? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 


Edited by sphinxvc - 6/28/11 at 8:37pm
post #3501 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Quote:

 

I thought that Headphonia review was really silly.  They caveat by saying the HD650s off a $2K amp like the Zana Deux could best the HE-500s in some areas.  Seriously?  Before someone invested $2K or more in an HD650 rig, why wouldn't anyone in their right mind consider better cans--to get even farther? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, what he meant was that the HD650 scale higher than the HE500s. If you plug both into a super-high-end setup, the 650s may sound better in some areas. I found the exact same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



 



 


Edited by Shahrose - 6/28/11 at 8:51pm
post #3502 of 37349

I do get that.  Though I haven't really witnessed this scalability myself; I would give his and your experience the benefit of the doubt and consider it true (because my impressions are mostly just meet impressions).  I think I just didn't appreciate the way the review rounded out, he was careful to explain how the HD650s bested them but not careful enough to detail the implications of his caveat, basically that if it isn't feasible for someone to invest in a Zana Deux or "super-high-end setup" as you put it, then HD650s would probably have a very tough time besting the HE500s in those areas.


Edited by sphinxvc - 6/28/11 at 9:19pm
post #3503 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post


 


What's really amazing is how much change is thought to be heard from a little tweak.

 

 

In the scheme of things, and IMHO,  the differences between headphones is the greatest and most noticeable.

 

This is followed by the differences between usb transports.

 

Next comes the differences between DACs themselves. (NOS, upsampling etc)

 

Then, possibly, the differences between amps, when not driven into clipping. (Stereo Review amp tests, etc)

 

Now, there are those who hear differences between tubes.  But this difference can't be greater than the difference between the amps themselves, so tube difference is "relatively" small.

 

Further down the list are differences claimed to be heard between analog cables, with no measurements or tests that support audible differences.

 

Finally, differences have been reported with the use of isolation boards, coupling feet, green markers, termination plugs and jacks and a host of other tweaks, whose differences may or may not be on the level of cables.

 

With  the relative magnitude of each difference becoming smaller and smaller and smaller, it's hard to justify reports of great differences from little tweaks and especially cables. 

 

I'm not saying that there is no difference between headphone cables, what I am saying is that what ever difference there might be is very, very, very small, relative to the larger differences between headphones, transports, dacs, amps, and tubes.

 

I once read a post where a reviewer claimed 80 percent of the sound of his system was due to tweaks.  I think making a silk purse out of a sow's ear is magic.

 

 

Not sure if you're trying to discredit my previous post, but nowhere did I state that the Lyr transforms the HD650 into something it's not. Just that the Lyr with the right tubes, is now presenting the HD650 at its best according to my preference. If someone doesn't like the inherent HD650 signature, it'd be a disservice to recommend components to address "issues". But if refinement is required and there's curiousity to hear how far these headphones can be taken without spending the big bucks, the Lyr is a great proposition.


The difference between tubes is immense, particularly with the Lyr. I don't find the stock configuration as bad as some have made it out to be, but the improvements with the right tubes are less than subtle. The various Lyr threads are ripe with similar findings.

post #3504 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital-Pride View Post

     Quote:


I tell ya, it's amazing just how much scale ability the HD650 have.  With the right equipment, one can have sound quality that rivals almost any dynamic headphone available.  So for now ,are you no longer interested in the LCD-2 or HE-500?smily_headphones1.gif



Still interested, but not as impulsive about it. The only reason I don't own an LCD-2 now is because of the recent driver concerns.

post #3505 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post


 


What's really amazing is how much change is thought to be heard from a little tweak.

 

 

In the scheme of things, and IMHO,  the differences between headphones is the greatest and most noticeable.

 

This is followed by the differences between usb transports.

 

Next comes the differences between DACs themselves. (NOS, upsampling etc)

 

Then, possibly, the differences between amps, when not driven into clipping. (Stereo Review amp tests, etc)

 

Now, there are those who hear differences between tubes.  But this difference can't be greater than the difference between the amps themselves, so tube difference is "relatively" small.

 

Further down the list are differences claimed to be heard between analog cables, with no measurements or tests that support audible differences.

 

Finally, differences have been reported with the use of isolation boards, coupling feet, green markers, termination plugs and jacks and a host of other tweaks, whose differences may or may not be on the level of cables.

 

With  the relative magnitude of each difference becoming smaller and smaller and smaller, it's hard to justify reports of great differences from little tweaks and especially cables. 

 

I'm not saying that there is no difference between headphone cables, what I am saying is that what ever difference there might be is very, very, very small, relative to the larger differences between headphones, transports, dacs, amps, and tubes.

 

I once read a post where a reviewer claimed 80 percent of the sound of his system was due to tweaks.  I think making a silk purse out of a sow's ear is magic.


I think you're mistaken in these assumptions. In my experience the biggest difference is always in the combination of the headphones/speakers and amplifier. A headphone cable is part of that, as well as the tubes in case of a tube amplifier. This combination makes the sound, but is of course limited by the quality of what you feed it.

 

post #3506 of 37349

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post

RE:  the infamous Senn "veil":   Does Sennheirser admit to this?


Do the searches... there are literally "reams" of evidence re: the "veil" and the "new version" in the much earlier posts re: the HD650's (3-5 years ago).

 

I've tested and tweaked all the Senn phones... and... yes the "old version" HD-650s, have a significant "veil."  Best experienced by comparing to other phones, which are much clearer.  It's obviously why Sennheiser upgraded the HD-650s.

 

RE: the scalability of the HD-650's - it is very real - they actually rival most other phones, including Stax, with the right set up.  But... you can achieve equivalent, or even better, sound quality with much lesser investments (e.g. AD2000's with Millett MiniMax, many Grados, etc.).  So... that would make the HE-500 a relative bargain, as noted in the referenced review.

 

And... no... the quality of the source and amp, and how well they match, the electronics of the phones - are far and away the most important factors in the quality of the sound from any set of phones.  There is not a huge difference between any of the "good" phones when driven by the right source and amp - but, that can be a difficult search.  The "Linn" principle will always rule.   
 

 


Edited by Gradofan2 - 6/29/11 at 8:05am
post #3507 of 37349

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 View Post

RE: the scalability of the HD-650's - it is very real - they actually rival most other phones, including Stax, with the right set up.  But... you can achieve equivalent, or even better, sound quality with much lesser investments.

 


Yup.

 

post #3508 of 37349

I have done business three times with an authorized Sennheiser dealer on ebay, razordogdeal2008, and all the transactions have gone smoothly.  The prices are reasonable, he ships very fast and leaves feedback.  He has over 14,600 @ 100% positive feedback on ebay and they have the full 2-year factory warranty.


Edited by Fastlane - 6/29/11 at 9:18am
post #3509 of 37349

I didn't click on your link but the HD650 like any other piece in the component chain can be improved with upgraded cables. You will hear many, many people say there is no difference in cables because there is no physical evidence to support this claim. My reply to this is to ask them if they have actually done a/b comparisons between cables? If they don't hear a difference then fine don't spend money on something they can't hear.

 

I believe the HD650 is relatively transparent so most people will hear a sonic difference when changes are made in the component chain. I don't think you will go wrong with an aftermarket cable such as the Moon, ALO, or DHC molecule. At least with a mainstream brand you can exchange/refund it if you don't like it. This change alone may even preclude you from spending even more money to upgrade other components in your system.

 

(Yeah right, like that's going to happen! o2smile.gif )
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feynman View Post

Hey guys/girls! Looking for a new cable for my 650's and found these on ebay 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250718033117&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1888wt_910

What do you think about the improvement over the stock cable, I've been thinking about going diy but since I live in sweden I have to order all of the parts overseas and If I don't order from the same place the cost for shipping will be quiet large. Talked to the guys at moon audio and for a diy blue dragon V3 I would pay roughly 160 usd with shipping so this seems a bit better...



 

post #3510 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by olor1n View Post

Not sure if you're trying to discredit my previous post, but nowhere did I state that the Lyr transforms the HD650 into something it's not. Just that the Lyr with the right tubes, is now presenting the HD650 at its best according to my preference. If someone doesn't like the inherent HD650 signature, it'd be a disservice to recommend components to address "issues". But if refinement is required and there's curiousity to hear how far these headphones can be taken without spending the big bucks, the Lyr is a great proposition.


The difference between tubes is immense, particularly with the Lyr. I don't find the stock configuration as bad as some have made it out to be, but the improvements with the right tubes are less than subtle. The various Lyr threads are ripe with similar findings.


Sorry, I was not trying to discredit your post in any way.  What I was trying to do was to show a decreasing magnitude of improvement as you go down the list of tweaks.

 

Some of you may like to re-order my list, and that's OK, but  for instance, if we think the difference between amps (for those who believe in such things) is X then the difference between changing tubes within a particular amp is going to be less than the difference between amps.  I'm not a big tube roller, but I'm not sure that a tube change is going to change the sonic characteristics of an amp so much as to make it sound like something other than they type of amp it is.  You can't change the tubes in a Woo2 and end up with a Zana Deux

 

Another way of saying this might be, if the differences between headphones can be called 'night and day', then the differences between dacs andamps, for instance, is a lot less, and the difference between cables even less than dacs and amps.

 

I think we can all agree that no dacs or amps have the magnitude of difference that headphones do.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post


I think you're mistaken in these assumptions. In my experience the biggest difference is always in the combination of the headphones/speakers and amplifier. A headphone cable is part of that, as well as the tubes in case of a tube amplifier. This combination makes the sound, but is of course limited by the quality of what you feed it.

 


My assumption was only that the amount of difference a cable can make is less than that made by an amp which is less than that made by a DAC which is less than that made by a usb transport which is less than that made by a  headphone.

 

You may want to change the order around, but the premise remains. 

 

Most of us can easily hear the differnce between headphones.  When volume balanced, it becomes more difficult to distinguish between dacs and amps.  By the time you get down to cables, isolation devices, couplers etc,  the differences (for those that believe in such things) become so small as to almost border on insignificant, relative to dacs, amps and headphones.

 

I was not addressing the synergy of a 'system' which is another topic all together.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by milosolo View Post

I didn't click on your link but the HD650 like any other piece in the component chain can be improved with upgraded cables. You will hear many, many people say there is no difference in cables because there is no physical evidence to support this claim. My reply to this is to ask them if they have actually done a/b comparisons between cables? If they don't hear a difference then fine don't spend money on something they can't hear.

 

I believe the HD650 is relatively transparent so most people will hear a sonic difference when changes are made in the component chain. I don't think you will go wrong with an aftermarket cable such as the Moon, ALO, or DHC molecule. At least with a mainstream brand you can exchange/refund it if you don't like it. This change alone may even preclude you from spending even more money to upgrade other components in your system.

 

(Yeah right, like that's going to happen! o2smile.gif )
 



 


So what you're saying is that on one side there is no evidence to indicate the audibility of cable differences and on the other side you're saying that there is a lot of hearsay that says there is.

 

Certainly you're not going to go wrong with any of the cables you suggested, but on the other hand, there's no evidence to suggest any of them will make a difference.

 

It's your money, spend it wisely.

 

On the other hand, there is no reason to pass up a really neat looking aftermarket headphone cable.  We buy fashion all the time.

 

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