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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 213

post #3181 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post





You're the one who brought them into this thead ha ha.. you're the one who has now got me looking at them!

 

 Couldn't agree more though, I paid 3 times the amount for my RS1's from my 225's but the SQ is certainly not 3 times better. That is my point... the old diminishing returns. OR clever marketing... because of "the gap" The gap that means, if you want to upgrade fom a hp like the 650 you have to pay A LOT more. The gap that the "hifiman" has been clever enough to cash in on. Though when I think of it.. denon does one too..

 

You reach a peak with the 650's. If you want to get higher then you will have to really splash out.      

 


True yeah the gap between the 650's and the LCD-2's is a heft one I only paid like 350.00 for my 650's 4 years ago
post #3182 of 36879

I wonder how the HD650's would sound with some changes akin to the lcd-2; angled leather pads, circular housing, etc.

post #3183 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrScary View Post


The LCD-2's are more than a little better sound quality they are in a different league than the 650's and shouldn't even be on this thread....
 


Just to put it out there - not everyone agrees with this statement.  There are a lot of things the LCD-2's do very very well, but their treble roll-off is not for everyone and should not be disregarded.  I would argue there are at least some ways in which the humble 650's outperform the LCD-2's, as noted below. 

 

I'll copy and paste in my comments from the HD800 v. LCD-2 thread in which the enthusiastic LCD-2 fans have been hyping the HD800's "6khz peak" - arguing that the LCD-2's must be deemed the more "natural" sounding headphone.  I strongly disagree with this conclusion. 

 

---

 

A peak at 6khz is basically irrelevant to anything but overtones if you are listening to recordings of vocals and natural instruments.  (See: http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm  )  Violins cut off, on the high end around 3.5khz - and even piccolos only extend to around 5khz.  A serious spike sub-4khz (see Beyer's DT880s) *might* be a real factor with respect to fatigue and treble balance, but peaks at 5khz and beyond do not matter in terms of core frequencies (unless you listening to a lot of recordings featuring the highest pitched pipes on a pipe organ).

 

The 6khz peak will impact overtones - which are the bases on which we perceive tone/timbre and distinguish between one instrument/voice and another.  However, my perspective is that the serious dip in the LCD-2's curve (as much as 15db!), at 6-8khz (depending on whether you're looking at the higher or lower amplitude curve), likely causes just a much, if not more, alteration/degradation in tone as the HD800's peak at 6khz.

 

I don't own the LCD-2's (so you may write me off on that basis), but I recently spent about 45 minutes critically listening to them in a silent room while trying to make a final decision as to whether or not to buy them.  They are great phones that do a whole lot of things right, but for me, the tone and texture of violins was not one of those things.  I attribute this (correctly or incorrectly) to their treble roll-off.  For example, in Chanticleer's superb recording "Evening Prayer - Purcell Anthems & Sacred Songs" the violins simply sounded a bit too smooth to be real.  To my ears, the textured and subtle bite of their highs just wasn't there.  I absolutely love the LCD-2's for rock, but in the classical realm and even with some bluegrass, my conclusion was that my HD650's (v2) (to say nothing of the HD800's) actually give a more honest, textured presentation of strings than the much loved Audeze's.  For live music recorded in large spaces (i.e. cathedrals) the perceived sound stage of the LCD-2's is also quite a let down.  

post #3184 of 36879



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Quote:


Well I'm glad you finally found your step up.  I think the LCD2s are the natural upgrade for HD650 aficionados*  [*who have tried other phones and find them uncomfortably bright.]

 

And I think I'd agree on all points of your account.   Resolution, soundstage and tonal balance are all better than the 650s.  And comfort, though I find them more comfortable than my 5LEs (still breaking in), is still inferior to the 650s or any of the light-weight dynamics, or feather-weight Stax.  

 

So are you using HPO or speaker taps?

 

I don't think the LCD2s are special in any way with the Lyr, aside from the fact that they give them the power they need, compared to other head-amps.  But if you have a receiver or preamp lying around, you can match or best that power output easily.  


Thanks for those comments. I wouldn't consider the Lyr anyway or any dedicated as I want an amp with remote volume--I'm hooked on the convenience. I'm happy to use a speaker amp, but unfortunately the Onkyo 9555 I'm using is a Class D and can't be used in the conventional way--the negatives can't be summed or something. I'd consider getting a conventional speaker amp but I wouldn't risk hooking up to the speaker taps without some sort of attenuation, which I guess undermines the whole point. The Onkyo is one of the few speaker amps that uses a separate HP amp. It's very high quality but of course limited in output compared to the Lyr etc.

 

Just wanted to ask, is a speaker amp HPO (that takes its signal from the speaker outs through resistors) better able to drive the LCD than a typical op amp based dedicated, or must you use the speaker taps? IOW, do most HPOs have more grunt, or more reserve or whatever than most op amp based dedicateds?

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post



Cheers pp312, and congrats! that is really helpfull and insightful. And sorry to all the new 650 fans reading all this LCD2 stuff... but, as has been pointed out, they are in the next league up from the 650's and so I would expect to hear a difference. Isn't it a shame though, that after having the 650's for years, we now have to spend soooo much more to get to the next level..? Is it clever marketing or is it a simple fact that with this hobby of ours; once we reach a certain point, we inevitably have to pay lots of money to get a little (debatable) better SQ, simply because it is hard to get any better? There is a big gap from.. what.. $300? to $900? I'm sure HP companies would make a killing, especially at the moment to release something inbetween.

 



 

 

Hope I didn't undersell the LCD as it really does offer a very noticeable step up; it's just that that step up, as you say, comes at a hefty price. And in fact I wouldn't accuse Audeze of profiteering (given the material cost and technical prowess of the LCD) so much as Beyer and Sennheiser, who I'm sure are basing their prices on what the market (or at least the top end of the market) can bear rather than actual cost, even taking R & D into account. In that sense the LCD is probably a bargain, but it's a shame it's a bargain few can afford nonetheless.

 

As for the 650 chums having to read about the LCD, I would think it extremely useful in placing the 650 in the overall scheme of things. Yes, the LCD trumps it in just about every area, but the point is, the 650 is extremely organic. I always found when listening to it that I was never aware of bass/mid/treble but of the sound as a whole. It doesn't dissect the music, but simply hands it to you to enjoy as a whole, in the best possible light. No, you may not be able to separate the instruments as well as with flagship products and picture the orchestra (or singer or whatever) quite as clearly, but it gives you enough to fill in the gaps yourself. In other words, it's very musical, and that's why I said it represents a plateau that few need venture beyond. It'll be around for a long time, I'm sure, HD700 or not.     

post #3185 of 36879

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

Thanks for those comments. I wouldn't consider the Lyr anyway or any dedicated as I want an amp with remote volume--I'm hooked on the convenience. I'm happy to use a speaker amp, but unfortunately the Onkyo 9555 I'm using is a Class D and can't be used in the conventional way--the negatives can't be summed or something. I'd consider getting a conventional speaker amp but I wouldn't risk hooking up to the speaker taps without some sort of attenuation, which I guess undermines the whole point. The Onkyo is one of the few speaker amps that uses a separate HP amp. It's very high quality but of course limited in output compared to the Lyr etc.

 

Just wanted to ask, is a speaker amp HPO (that takes its signal from the speaker outs through resistors) better able to drive the LCD than a typical op amp based dedicated, or must you use the speaker taps? IOW, do most HPOs have more grunt, or more reserve or whatever than most op amp based dedicateds?


I think it depends.  Here's a useful post from another thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by grokit View Post

From following the vintage receiver thread for awhile, it seems that it depends on the particular make and model. Some have resistors going to the headphone circuit to lower the power, and some use a separate transformer tap to correct the impedance but have full power going to it. In modern receivers there is usually a separate op-amp circuit for the headphone jack, which is another reason why many prefer the speaker taps.

 


Edited by sphinxvc - 5/11/11 at 6:54pm
post #3186 of 36879

Thanks for all the LCD2 comments, clearly they are a great phone and I'm sure I'll at least get to try them one day.

 

Just been listenin to Sibelius 5th Symphony with the 650's and I'm still in love with them after all these years.. sooo sweet at the top, warm at the bottom and the full texture of the strings in the middle. Marvelous.

 

I've ordered another cable to try, just purely out of interest and it was cheap (the cheapest available I think). I'll post some comments when I receive.  

post #3187 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post





You're the one who brought them into this thead ha ha.. you're the one who has now got me looking at them!

 

 Couldn't agree more though, I paid 3 times the amount for my RS1's from my 225's but the SQ is certainly not 3 times better. That is my point... the old diminishing returns. OR clever marketing... because of "the gap" The gap that means, if you want to upgrade fom a hp like the 650 you have to pay A LOT more. The gap that the "hifiman" has been clever enough to cash in on. Though when I think of it.. denon does one too..

 

You reach a peak with the 650's. If you want to get higher then you will have to really splash out.      

 


You cannot quantify sound as 2 or 3 times better, but just better. There are a lot of other headphones similarly priced as the HD650 that are equally good and different(denon, akg etc). 

I agree with MrScary that the LCD-2s are MUCH better than the 650s and they warrant the price difference. 

 

post #3188 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by brasewel View Post




You cannot quantify sound as 2 or 3 times better, but just better. There are a lot of other headphones similarly priced as the HD650 that are equally good and different(denon, akg etc). 

I agree with MrScary that the LCD-2s are MUCH better than the 650s and they warrant the price difference. 

 



You can when you are counting your money to buy them. Headphones are marketed in different price brackets. Therefore if a headphone is 3 times more expensive then I would expect it to be 3 times better. If you don't hold this same reasoning then more fool you. If they are "just better" that could mean anything from "a little" to "a lot."

 

I think it has been established that the LCD2's are MUCH better, but until I hear them for myself, I will still doubt that they are "3 times better" no matter what your wallet says.     

post #3189 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post





You can when you are counting your money to buy them. Headphones are marketed in different price brackets. Therefore if a headphone is 3 times more expensive then I would expect it to be 3 times better. If you don't hold this same reasoning then more fool you. If they are "just better" that could mean anything from "a little" to "a lot."

 

I think it has been established that the LCD2's are MUCH better, but until I hear them for myself, I will still doubt that they are "3 times better" no matter what your wallet says.     


I thought this was a HD650 appreciation thread not compare a 7 year old Headphone with a Planar Magnetic technology headphone.. It just doesn't make sense open a new thread 650 vs the LCD-2 hahahaha this is insanity
post #3190 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrScary View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post





You can when you are counting your money to buy them. Headphones are marketed in different price brackets. Therefore if a headphone is 3 times more expensive then I would expect it to be 3 times better. If you don't hold this same reasoning then more fool you. If they are "just better" that could mean anything from "a little" to "a lot."

 

I think it has been established that the LCD2's are MUCH better, but until I hear them for myself, I will still doubt that they are "3 times better" no matter what your wallet says.     




I thought this was a HD650 appreciation thread not compare a 7 year old Headphone with a Planar Magnetic technology headphone.. It just doesn't make sense open a new thread 650 vs the LCD-2 hahahaha this is insanity



When you start using commas, I will stop talking about the LCD2's. etysmile.gif

 

Anyways, brainwel started it up again.  

 

post #3191 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post





You can when you are counting your money to buy them. Headphones are marketed in different price brackets. Therefore if a headphone is 3 times more expensive then I would expect it to be 3 times better. If you don't hold this same reasoning then more fool you. If they are "just better" that could mean anything from "a little" to "a lot."

 

I think it has been established that the LCD2's are MUCH better, but until I hear them for myself, I will still doubt that they are "3 times better" no matter what your wallet says.     


If you hold that reasoning then it's obvious who the fool is here. Sound is perceived differently by the next person, hence it could seem a lot better to me and less by you.  

 

post #3192 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post





When you start using commas, I will stop talking about the LCD2's. etysmile.gif

 

Anyways, brainwel started it up again.  

 



When you start a new thread I will start using commas.

post #3193 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by brasewel View Post




If you hold that reasoning then it's obvious who the fool is here. Sound is perceived differently by the next person, hence it could seem a lot better to me and less by you.  

 

Just to repeat,

"I think it has been established that the LCD2's are MUCH better, but until I hear them for myself, I will still doubt that they are "3 times better" "

 

I've already thanked everyone for their comments on the LCD2's in regards to a possible upgrade from the 650's. There has actually been some very constructive points raised.

post #3194 of 36879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post



Just to repeat,

"I think it has been established that the LCD2's are MUCH better, but until I hear them for myself, I will still doubt that they are "3 times better" "

 

I've already thanked everyone for their comments on the LCD2's in regards to a possible upgrade from the 650's. There has actually been some very constructive points raised.

The LCD-2's are much better than the HD650's but how much? I don't know I have both depends on to many variables to be discussed in a HD650 appreciation thread.


 

 

post #3195 of 36879

I personally feel the LCD-2, HD800 and HE-6 are not much better than the HD650s. Build a setup around any of those and you'll get spectacular sound. The first 3 will scale higher but it's not like they'll completely embarrass the HD650s...IMO ofcourse.

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