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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 194

post #2896 of 36844

Just bought the HD650's and a Icon HDP amp/dac. This is my first major headphone/amp/dac purchase. I'm excited to say the least. I'm a little sad to be retiring my AD700's though. They treated me well, will probably keep them around for gaming.

post #2897 of 36844

thanks for the advice guys I'll most probably be selling the HD600s, will continue to A/B both though but it seems like listening to the Dt880s when I require a neutral sound signature is enough for me :)

post #2898 of 36844

Hi- got any links to this UPOCC cable? Much appreciated. I found very thin selection of them for around $200 via extensive googling but wondering if you had some specific ones in mind. Would prefer to spend a bit less...

post #2899 of 36844

I must stress the importance of having a good DAC amp and transport before venturing into the world of high-end cables...but if you would really like to know where to get UPOCC copper cables, then there are many recommendations. Downsize Audio, Double Helix Cables,  ALO audio, Moon Audio....other good cable manufacturers that produce silver/copper mixtures are APS, TWag etc. There are many to choose from, though I've found the best deals (re: value) from the first 2 I mentioned in the list. Just google them.


 

post #2900 of 36844

This is not meant in any way shape or form to undermine Shahrose's comments regarding his own experience with upgraded cables, but there is a polar opposite view on the matter you should at least be aware of.  For the most part, the great cable debate is confined to the sound science forum, but in essence, the "anti-cable" faction, if you will, contends that listeners routinely fail to distinguish between the original vs. upgraded cables in blind tests.

 

There's no doubt that many companies make beautiful, well constructed aftermarket cables out of high end materials, but whether or not you will personally be able to appreciate sonic improvements as a result of buying one is a separate matter entirely.  Back when I started reading head-fi, I assumed that cable upgrades were sort of a given in belonging to this community.  However, over the past two years, the more I've read on the topic, the less convinced I've become that there is any scientific basis for purchasing expensive after-market cables in so far as attempting to realize audible improvements.  They certainly do look pretty, but there is a high probability (some would say, a certainty) that you can reach a more impressive cost/sonic improvement ratio by investing your money elsewhere.

 

Recommendations for upgraded power cables, on the other hand, simply baffle me.  There are a few posters who constantly raise this issue, but I have yet to see any reasonable explanation as to how using three feet of extremely high quality power cable (from wall to amp) is going to make any sonic difference at all when the hundreds of feet of electrical wiring flowing through the rest of my house were wired with whatever stock, cheap cable they used back in the 1920's when it was built. 


Edited by skeptic - 4/13/11 at 12:10pm
post #2901 of 36844
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic View Post

This is not meant in any way shape or form to undermine Shahrose's comments regarding his own experience with upgraded cables, but there is a polar opposite view on the matter you should at least be aware of.  For the most part, the great cable debate is confined to the sound science forum, but in essence, the "anti-cable" faction, if you will, contends that listeners routinely fail to distinguish between the original vs. upgraded cables in blind tests.

 

There's no doubt that many companies make beautiful, well constructed aftermarket cables out of high end materials, but whether or not you will personally be able to appreciate sonic improvements as a result of buying one is a separate matter entirely.  Back when I started reading head-fi, I assumed that cable upgrades were sort of a given in belonging to this community. 1) However, over the past two years, the more I've read on the topic, the less convinced I've become that there is any scientific basis for purchasing expensive after-market cables in so far as attempting to realize audible improvements.  They certainly do look pretty, but 2) there is a high probability (some would say, a certainty) that you can reach a more impressive cost/sonic improvement ratio by investing your money elsewhere.

 

Recommendations for upgraded power cables, on the other hand, simply baffle me.  There are a few posters who constantly raise this issue, but I have yet to see any reasonable explanation as to how using three feet of extremely high quality power cable (from wall to amp) is going to make any sonic difference at all when the hundreds of feet of electrical wiring flowing through the rest of my house were wired with whatever stock, cheap cable they used back in the 1920's when it was built. 

 

1) I was just like you a couple of years back, so I respect you for posting your thoughts. But...the problem lies in the bolded statement. The solution is to read less and listen more (through ownership...not just A/B'ing at meets or stores). You'll be surprised.

 

2) As for the italicized portion underneath...I absolutely agree, cables are the last thing one should upgrade. I doubt many would argue against you there...cables provide the least amount of benefit for the cost usually, unless one is proficient at DIY.
 

 


Edited by Shahrose - 4/13/11 at 12:37pm
post #2902 of 36844
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic View Post

This is not meant in any way shape or form to undermine Shahrose's comments regarding his own experience with upgraded cables, but there is a polar opposite view on the matter you should at least be aware of.  For the most part, the great cable debate is confined to the sound science forum, but in essence, the "anti-cable" faction, if you will, contends that listeners routinely fail to distinguish between the original vs. upgraded cables in blind tests.

 

There's no doubt that many companies make beautiful, well constructed aftermarket cables out of high end materials, but whether or not you will personally be able to appreciate sonic improvements as a result of buying one is a separate matter entirely.  Back when I started reading head-fi, I assumed that cable upgrades were sort of a given in belonging to this community.  However, over the past two years, the more I've read on the topic, the less convinced I've become that there is any scientific basis for purchasing expensive after-market cables in so far as attempting to realize audible improvements.  They certainly do look pretty, but there is a high probability (some would say, a certainty) that you can reach a more impressive cost/sonic improvement ratio by investing your money elsewhere.

 

Recommendations for upgraded power cables, on the other hand, simply baffle me.  There are a few posters who constantly raise this issue, but I have yet to see any reasonable explanation as to how using three feet of extremely high quality power cable (from wall to amp) is going to make any sonic difference at all when the hundreds of feet of electrical wiring flowing through the rest of my house were wired with whatever stock, cheap cable they used back in the 1920's when it was built. 



I'll get in first... electricity is the fundamental source of all that this hobby is. If it wasn't then we would all be talking about the Live music" that we heard last night and what the sound was like. The flow of electricity is very important. There are certain materials that make electricity flow better. The need for better "flowing electricity" is needed because every time a piece of music "gets louder" (for the sake of Sceptic..) there is a short boost of electricity needed. If the flow is poor or could flow better..? then this can be acheived by using more of the conductive material (or better quality), or by shielding the core. 

 

It is simple science... If you fuel your own body with a poor source then you are not going to work as good.  

 

Some companies for sure take advantage of this. Look around and you will find similar products a lot cheaper.. and probably much better.. I have!         

 

post #2903 of 36844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

Today I watched a few movies with the HD-650 and an Onkyo amp. It sound really bad, but I imagine the Onkyo screws up the sound or can't drive it well. It sounded quite muffled, especially male vocals. Probably due to not having them burned in or that I still had the foam installed. I prefer the sound without the foam and it mids seem to clear up a bit to me.

 



Would you tell me more about that foam removing mod? I find my HD650s a little lacking on the treble, would like to give that mod a try if it is not very complicated.


Edited by ljperez84 - 4/13/11 at 2:48pm
post #2904 of 36844
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljperez84 View Post



Would you tell me more about that foam removing mod? I find my HD650s a little lacking on the treble, would like to give that mod a try if it is not very complicated.


http://apuresound.com/hdsennmod.html

 

My personal experience with this mod was that of improvement in the short-run, but it was a false impression. Over a longer period, I realized the foam was needed. Ofcourse, the effects of this mod will be very system-dependent, but I tried several setups and ended up preferring the stock form. I can provide more details if you'd like. YMMV and the mod's worth a try solely for its simplicity and potential payoff in your particular setup.

post #2905 of 36844

Thanks for the courteous reply Shahrose.  I'll look for future opportunities to compare cables and will probably get around to making one myself one of these days - having already assembled a mogami/neutrik extension cable I use with a fair degree of regularity.  But the problem with buying or building first, and listening second, unless you're doing it blind, is the post-purchase rationalization phenomena that inevitably comes into play.  For now, I imagine I'm more of an agnostic than a true disbeliever as to the merits of replacement cables. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post

 

It is simple science...

 

I believe I'm familiar with the simple science.  In fact, I'm in the process of reading through Morgan Jones' definitive tome on Valve Amplifiers right now.  I simply have yet to see a single scientific article/test/or study that agrees with what you're suggesting regarding power cables.  Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that electrons have the potential to flow "better" in an expensive power cable, how is it possible that an end user benefits from this in any way when that pricey cable is being plugged into a dirt cheap socket, and thereby connected to the basic electrical wiring that permeates the rest of your domicile?  Let's look at the other end of the connection as well.  If you have ever done a DIY project or looked at the hook-up wire used throughout the power supply of even the priciest amps, we are talking about some pretty basic wire here (even on the high end) that then typically runs through the tiny leads of a diode bridge to become DC.  Your amp's wiring is not even close to the stuff vendors are charging $30/yard (on the low end) to you-don't-wanna-know/yard (on the high end) for to serve as fancy A/C cables.  If I'm missing some simple aspect of the science here that gives rise to an audible difference when using high end AC cables, please fill me in...  I will happily eat humble pie as the price of an otherwise free education on the subject if I'm wrong /shrug  


Edited by skeptic - 4/13/11 at 3:06pm
post #2906 of 36844

Thanks Shahrose! I think I will leave them stock, I'd be worrying all the time about a hair or something getting into the driver,

post #2907 of 36844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post





I'd say the HD650. The 600s are closer to the DT880s than the 650s are, though both Senn cans are a significant departure from the Beyer sound sig.


x2
post #2908 of 36844
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic View Post

Thanks for the courteous reply Shahrose.  I'll look for future opportunities to compare cables and will probably get around to making one myself one of these days - having already assembled a mogami/neutrik extension cable I use with a fair degree of regularity.  But the problem with buying or building first, and listening second, unless you're doing it blind, is the post-purchase rationalization phenomena that inevitably comes into play.  For now, I imagine I'm more of an agnostic than a true disbeliever as to the merits of replacement cables. 
 

 

I believe I'm familiar with the simple science.  In fact, I'm in the process of reading through Morgan Jones' definitive tome on Valve Amplifiers right now.  I simply have yet to see a single scientific article/test/or study that agrees with what you're suggesting regarding power cables.  Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that electrons have the potential to flow "better" in an expensive power cable, how is it possible that an end user benefits from this in any way when that pricey cable is being plugged into a dirt cheap socket, and thereby connected to the basic electrical wiring that permeates the rest of your domicile?  Let's look at the other end of the connection as well.  If you have ever done a DIY project or looked at the hook-up wire used throughout the power supply of even the priciest amps, we are talking about some pretty basic wire here (even on the high end) that then typically runs through the tiny leads of a diode bridge to become DC.  Your amp's wiring is not even close to the stuff vendors are charging $30/yard (on the low end) to you-don't-wanna-know/yard (on the high end) for to serve as fancy A/C cables.  If I'm missing some simple aspect of the science here that gives rise to an audible difference when using high end AC cables, please fill me in...  I will happily eat humble pie as the price of an otherwise free education on the subject if I'm wrong /shrug  



Sorry for the abrupt post.. I'd had a few too many glasses of wine and sometimes I turn into "Mr Know it all" but last night it seems I turned into Steven Hawkings..  

 

I understand where you are coming from and I myself will now not fall for the big claims that cable manufacturers advertise (no names mentioned) but hand on heart I can tell a difference. My 650's are so much more attacking and sharper simply by using more copper in the cable. I recently bought a cheap tube amp that had a standard cable fitted with a cheap plug, The sound was very small and too polite for my 650's (even after burn in) so I snipped the cable off and added an adapter so that I could use different power cables. Fitting a £30 hifi cable with gold plated plugs and OFC fully insulated etc and the sound was instantly louder and more dynamic.  

 

You can get filters for dirty electricity from the mains, and I use one, but to be honest I can't tell any difference... 

 

cheers

post #2909 of 36844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post

 

1) I was just like you a couple of years back, so I respect you for posting your thoughts. But...the problem lies in the bolded statement. The solution is to read less and listen more (through ownership...not just A/B'ing at meets or stores). You'll be surprised.

 

2) As for the italicized portion underneath...I absolutely agree, cables are the last thing one should upgrade. I doubt many would argue against you there...cables provide the least amount of benefit for the cost usually, unless one is proficient at DIY.
 

 



Agreed. I was a sceptic too, until first hand experience put that doubt to rest. For me, it's not entirely subtle either, so I'll be damned if I let someone on a forum insist that I'm deluding myself, simply because they've read about it.

post #2910 of 36844
Hey, some folks apparently have life-changing experiences upon first exposure to really expensive aftermarket wires for their headphones, speakers, interconnects, whatever. One can be assured that those folks will mention it early and often on forums like this one. To the point where newbies take it as universally accepted common knowledge that any piece of gear absolutely must be "upgraded" with hundreds of dollars worth of wire in some form or another.

It is important for the equally large number of folks who consider the whole thing hogwash to frequently chime in with their own totally subjective impressions. If for no other reason to reassure the occasional newbie who finds the "common knowledge" around here a bit dodgy-sounding.
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