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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 183

post #2731 of 37349

This may be a good opportunity.

 

I hope I like them as much as you do!

 

 

 

---Rodgers is the man.
 

 


Edited by jeust0999 - 3/20/11 at 3:07am
post #2732 of 37349

I agree with Logwed.

If speakers or headphones immediately make a "WOW" statement, it usually means there is too much of something in their presentation and it will allways annoy me after a while.

post #2733 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post

I agree with Logwed.

If speakers or headphones immediately make a "WOW" statement, it usually means there is too much of something in their presentation and it will allways annoy me after a while.



Totally agree also. In fact I've posted as much many times. It's the music that should excite, not the headphones.

 

post #2734 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

I went off to my first Head-fi meet today with big expectations for my HD650s.  I was expecting to hear bigger soundstage (on par with the K701s), better dimensionality, and better imaging.  If this actually happened, it would have hit me in the face.  I've only had my K701s for a week but I decided to lug them along to the meet as well just for kicks and I'm glad I did.  The meet conditions weren't half-bad for listening.  From what the regulars were saying, there was a lower turn-out than usual.

 

I started with the 650s and the Meier Corda Concerto + Stagedac.  Not much of an improvement.  Onto the Schiit Lyr + NFB-12 as DAC: inferior to the Concerto (just a synergy issue I suppose as the LCD2s were phenomenal with the Lyr, but not the 650s or 701s).  Onto a Woo Audio WA6 SE + NFB-12 as DAC.  Still not impressed.  Final try: off to try them on a Woo Audio WA22 off of (what looked like) a Woo Audio transport...not impressed at all.  I was very underwhelmed with my the HD650s on even the most high end gear.  To my disappointment, I did not find that great increase in soundstage, dimensionality or imaging I was supposed to.  A few fellow head-fi'ers came along with me experimenting and were equally underwhelmed by the HD650s compared to the K701s, the HD800s, the T1, the HE-6, and LCD-2s and a pair of D2000s.  The HD650s were most underwhelming of all.  The K701s on the other hand held their own against the HD800 very well.  While I tried to improve the HD650s to the level of the K701s soundstage and imaging and failed, I managed to correct the tonality of the K701s with high end tube amps.  The Woo WA6 SE and the Woo WA22 both provided a very HD650 midrange tonality to the normally thin (at least in the midrange) K701s.  The K701s soundstage actually improved with the WA6 SE, becoming very much like a bubble of sound on your head.  So much perspective gained in one afternoon.  I'm selling my HD650s very soon.



I wonder if was because you were testing the 650's on tube amps? I personally would never use them with tubes as your adding more warmth to an already warm sound.  

 

post #2735 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post





I wonder if was because you were testing the 650's on tube amps? I personally would never use them with tubes as your adding more warmth to an already warm sound.  

 

That is a misconception. Tubes don't have a warm sound. they tend to make your speakers sound mellow (aenemic) when they are used for drivers that demand more current than the tubes can deliver. This happens relatively often because tubes deliver their power in voltage swing rather than current. High impedance drivers (like the 300 Ohm Sennheiser) are much better off with tube amplifiers because they need lots of voltage swing to perform. That's also why they benefit a lot from balanced driviing: double voltage swing (among other advantages).
 

 

post #2736 of 37349

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post


I wonder if was because you were testing the 650's on tube amps? I personally would never use them with tubes as your adding more warmth to an already warm sound.  

 

 

The Corda Concerto is not a tube amp, its solid state.  The Lyr is a hybrid and the WA22 is an advanced tube amp.  So long as we're going by stereotypes (and let's not), the stereotype is that higher end tube amps offer much of the same sound as good solid state.  And then if I'm not mistaken, there's also a stereotype that tube amps offer the most expansive soundstage?  

 

I'm not sure why this is going off in a million directions.  I really like the HD650s tonality.  I said nothing about the 650s becoming too warm.  They didn't.  I think I just needed a bit more soundstage from the 650s.  OR correct tonality from the 701s.  I was able to achieve one of those, so that's good

A few pages ago I posted that I found the 650s and 701s more similar than they are different (in comparison to say, D7Ks).  I still feel this way.  I felt both phones had certain weaknesses.  My ideal sound signature for this level of can would have the 650s bottom end, the 650s midrange, and the 701s top end and soundstage.  The 701s don't do that perfectly obviously, but they seem to make the least compromises, and then only in the right system.  There's nothing "wow" about that.

 

For the record, the only cans that "wow" me are the Qualias and the MDR-R10s, and then only in the way they disappear and leave nothing but music.  wink.gif

 

 


Edited by sphinxvc - 3/20/11 at 4:08am
post #2737 of 37349

^ Well said. Put the pitchforks away folks.

post #2738 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post



That is a misconception. Tubes don't have a warm sound. they tend to make your speakers sound mellow (aenemic) when they are used for drivers that demand more current than the tubes can deliver. This happens relatively often because tubes deliver their power in voltage swing rather than current. High impedance drivers (like the 300 Ohm Sennheiser) are much better off with tube amplifiers because they need lots of voltage swing to perform. That's also why they benefit a lot from balanced driviing: double voltage swing (among other advantages).
 

 



Thanks for that, would it be the same for cheaper tube amps? little dots for instance, I was thinking about getting one for my new Grado's as well a my 650's but was put off from what I've read.. dont want a too warm or muddy bass.

 

No pitchforks here, just general opinions. That is what forums are for.

post #2739 of 37349

I am going to have to agree with sphinxvc on his assessment of the HD650. Sphinxvc, another fellow head-fier and myself ABed the 650s with a ton of amps (Meier Concerto, Schiit Lyr, Woo Audio WA22, Woo Audio 6, Headroom Buda and more) and were totally unimpressed at how muddy and closed it sounded. We were comparing the 650s to AKG 701, LA2000, HD 800 and T1 and the 650s were inferior in every aspect. In addition they were also the least comfortable of the lot. I'm glad I got to hear them at the meet since I had considered purchasing a pair.

post #2740 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post



That is a misconception. Tubes don't have a warm sound. they tend to make your speakers sound mellow (aenemic) when they are used for drivers that demand more current than the tubes can deliver. This happens relatively often because tubes deliver their power in voltage swing rather than current. High impedance drivers (like the 300 Ohm Sennheiser) are much better off with tube amplifiers because they need lots of voltage swing to perform. That's also why they benefit a lot from balanced driviing: double voltage swing (among other advantages).
 

 


And... that is the point... the "new version" HD650's (need voltage), and the Grado's (need current) are by no means muddy, or too warm, when mated with the right amps and sources. 

 

The "old version" HD650s certainly were too dark and veiled.  But, not the new ones.  And none of the Grados are.  The new ones are fantastic with the Graham Slee amps, the Millett MiniMAX, the WA6 SEm, and I'm sure many other amps - very fast, clear, spacious, and dynamic with... great bass and mids... great!
 

 

post #2741 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

I went off to my first Head-fi meet today with big expectations for my HD650s.  I was expecting to hear bigger soundstage (on par with the K701s), better dimensionality, and better imaging.  If this actually happened, it would have hit me in the face.  I've only had my K701s for a week but I decided to lug them along to the meet as well just for kicks and I'm glad I did.  The meet conditions weren't half-bad for listening.  From what the regulars were saying, there was a lower turn-out than usual.

 

...So much perspective gained in one afternoon.  I'm selling my HD650s very soon.

 

There's your problem. Meet impressions are misleading because they are biased towards those things that grab your attention right away (ie. bright headphones or bassy etc.). This is actually a BAD sign. I've always found over the years that if something sounds "unimpressive" at first, it's usually better in the long-run and vice versa. Own both cans for some time and then re-post here. I suggest you don't sell the 650s until you've gained more experience with them, but ofcourse, you're free to do what you want.

 

I would argue that the real perspective you gained here was that meet impressions are usually not equivalent to long-term impressions from ownership.
 

(Check to see which cans I've owned in my profile...the HD650s are just as enjoyable as any of them.)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by logwed View Post

Ok, my philosophy with headphones is that if you are overwhelmed by something in the sound, that means that something is not right with the sound reproduction. A natural headphone should not be 'impressive' in any specific part of the sound, that implies that there isn't a balance to the presentation. If there is a really specific part of the sound that hits you, that means that it is not reproducing the whole recording truthfully, that it is sugarcoating part of the sound. While that sugarcoating may be fun and cool for a little while, I've found that I cannot seriously listen to such a headphone for very long. I've always stuck with the HD650s because I feel that they are the ultimate in natural sound reproduction of any headphone that I've heard. They don't overemphasize any aspect, and have a very intricate sense of positioning.

 

Now, more specifically to your meet experiences, Sphinxvc, I don't know why you expected the HD650 to have a significantly larger soundstage than the K701. I don't know of anyone that has described the HD650 as having a tremendous soundstage when compared to the K701. Now, I would say (having owned both) that the HD650 has superior dimensionality and imaging to the K701. For me, and I have posted this elsewhere on the forums, the K701 is like a giant room with a nature scene projected against the walls. It's pretty cool how big it all feels, but when you get close and really examine the sound, it loses a lot of reality and depth. The HD650 is much more like actually being out in that nature scene. You might not feel like it's huge and expansive, but when you examine each piece of the sound, it's extremely real and fits very well in the overall soundscape.

 

YMMV, of course, and you may just like the K701 more! Power to you.



Good post.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees View Post

I agree with Logwed.

If speakers or headphones immediately make a "WOW" statement, it usually means there is too much of something in their presentation and it will allways annoy me after a while.



Newcomers should take heed of this advice ^. Well said.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post


Totally agree also. In fact I've posted as much many times. It's the music that should excite, not the headphones.

 



Agreed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by brasewel View Post

I am going to have to agree with sphinxvc on his assessment of the HD650. Sphinxvc, another fellow head-fier and myself ABed the 650s with a ton of amps (Meier Concerto, Schiit Lyr, Woo Audio WA22, Woo Audio 6, Headroom Buda and more) and were totally unimpressed at how muddy and closed it sounded. We were comparing the 650s to AKG 701, LA2000, HD 800 and T1 and the 650s were inferior in every aspect. In addition they were also the least comfortable of the lot. I'm glad I got to hear them at the meet since I had considered purchasing a pair.



I'm guessing you didn't own all of the cans for a significant period when you compared them. I owned the HD800s and HD650s and can tell you the 650s hold up very well if you have the right equipment and listen critically.

The comfort issue is also moot because the clamp is adjustable. A quick search (or even reading earlier in this thread) would inform one of the procedure.


Edited by Shahrose - 3/20/11 at 9:40am
post #2742 of 37349

I've been using my HD-650 for a couple of weeks now. I really love it, but I prefer a thinner sounding headphone such as the K702 or DT-880. I don't know why this is really. Strange huh? The K702 would have been perfect for me but it's mids appear to have a slight dip somewhere and feel a bit lost in it's huge soundstage. It feels kind of like a phony soundstage, however that's possible. Not that the mids are recessed, but at times it sounded like it. I did prefer the K601, but it lost out in clarity and detail compared when compared to the K702. Hopefully I can try the K501 sometime.

 

Right now I am totally on the fence as to which headphone I like more. The DT-880 32 ohm or HD-650 (white screen version). I know many people will want to jump out and say that the HD-650 is clearly better in every way, but I only care about what my ears like and my own preferences. It's stupid to compare both of them too much since I want to just enjoy them without over analyzing them. Last night I was listening to the DT-880 for hours and really loved it and kept thinking I like it more than the HD-650. Then I'd put on the HD-650 and it did so many things better. Strangely enough my DT-880 is way less fatiguing for my ears and feels more neutral. No surprise there, but I always imagined in my mind that the HD-650 would be one of the most non fatiguing headphones there is! The treble on the DT-880 doesn't even remotely bother me. The mids are clearly more forward on the HD-650. I don't find the mids on the DT-880 recessed. Sometimes a few tracks can fool a person into thinking that! A few of my Pearl Jam songs have very recessed sounding vocals, but it's like that way in the recording.

 

The sound of the DT-880 is much thinner and is totally different than the HD-650, but I prefer that for some types of music. I guess the detail (not just because of the extra treble) and clarity is what I love most. The DT-880 is much less forgiving of my source files than the HD-650. It's funny how on some genres the DT-880 is more engaging and fun to listen to, but in others I prefer the HD-650. Without a doubt, male and female vocals are clearly better on the HD-650. I do prefer the soundstage on the DT-880 for some reason.

 

BTW this CD is quite impressive on the DT-880 and my old ATH-AD2000, but not so much on my HD-650 and I wonder why. It just doesn't feel the same on the HD-650:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_Timbuktu

(Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder)

 

It's hard to put into words why, but it feels as if it's too congested on the HD-650. It feels like I'm missing out on a lot of the detail. Guitar music was really amazing on the ATH-AD2000. I wish those had fit me better.

 

I keep coming up with reasons to get rid of the HD-650, but I really can't. I do feel that the DT-880 is better for some genres to my ears. What I can't get over is how bad some of my music (even ALAC or FLAC) sounds on my DT-880. Basically 90% of everything I have sounds good on the HD-650. On the DT-880 it's easier to spot the garbage tracks, which isn't many. Most of my music is CD or Lossless.

 

I think at this point the DT-880 and HD-650 are both a great pair and sound very different to me. The HD-650 I think overall is the better headphone, but I still love the sound of the DT-880. It does feel much more neutral though and I'm sure most could agree. I wonder if there is actually anyone out there that loves both the DT-880 and HD-650? I imagine there isn't, just how very few love both the K702 and HD-650! It seems that people who love the HD-600/650 absolutely hate the K701!

 

I do think DT-880 is quite boring at times, but it all depends on the music. Overall I feel it's just one step up from being a total bore without coloring the music too much. I imagine there is a lot of music that is terrible on the DT-880. It seems that many genres that the HD-650 does poorly with the DT-880 will do quite well.

 

 

post #2743 of 37349




I'm guessing you didn't own all of the cans for a significant period when you compared them. I owned the HD800s and HD650s and can tell you the 650s hold up very well if you have the right equipment and listen critically.

The comfort issue is also moot because the clamp is adjustable. A quick search (or even reading earlier in this thread) would inform one of the procedure.

 

I have had the HD800 in the past and currently own the LA2000 so I am not conjuring these statements out of thin air.

Granted I did not listen to the 650s long enough to analyze all it's strengths and weaknesses but we definitely did not like what we heard in the 1 hour we spent critiquing it. I did not have a problem with the clamping force, the problem is I have relatively big ears and they touch the drivers. Stuffing the earpads with something may solve it. I have had this problem with all the sennheisers I have owned in the past with the exception of the HD800.

I am not bashing this phone, just stating that it didn't suit my tastes thats all.

 


Edited by brasewel - 3/20/11 at 11:00am
post #2744 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by brasewel View Post

 

I have had the HD800 in the past and currently own the LA2000 so I am not conjuring these statements out of thin air.

Granted I did not listen to the 650s long enough to analyze all it's strengths and weaknesses but we definitely did not like what we heard in the 1 hour we spent critiquing it. I did not have a problem with the clamping force, the problem is I have relatively big ears and they touch the drivers. Stuffing the earpads with something may solve it. I have had this problem with all the sennheisers I have owned in the past with the exception of the HD800.

I am not bashing this phone, just stating that it didn't suit my tastes thats all.

 


 

Fair enough.

 

The 800s are the most comfy cans I've ever worn.

post #2745 of 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

I've been using my HD-650 for a couple of weeks now. I really love it, but I prefer a thinner sounding headphone such as the K702 or DT-880. I don't know why this is really. Strange huh? The K702 would have been perfect for me but it's mids appear to have a slight dip somewhere and feel a bit lost in it's huge soundstage. It feels kind of like a phony soundstage, however that's possible. Not that the mids are recessed, but at times it sounded like it. I did prefer the K601, but it lost out in clarity and detail compared when compared to the K702. Hopefully I can try the K501 sometime.

 

Right now I am totally on the fence as to which headphone I like more. The DT-880 32 ohm or HD-650 (white screen version). I know many people will want to jump out and say that the HD-650 is clearly better in every way, but I only care about what my ears like and my own preferences. It's stupid to compare both of them too much since I want to just enjoy them without over analyzing them. Last night I was listening to the DT-880 for hours and really loved it and kept thinking I like it more than the HD-650. Then I'd put on the HD-650 and it did so many things better. Strangely enough my DT-880 is way less fatiguing for my ears and feels more neutral. No surprise there, but I always imagined in my mind that the HD-650 would be one of the most non fatiguing headphones there is! The treble on the DT-880 doesn't even remotely bother me. The mids are clearly more forward on the HD-650. I don't find the mids on the DT-880 recessed. Sometimes a few tracks can fool a person into thinking that! A few of my Pearl Jam songs have very recessed sounding vocals, but it's like that way in the recording.

 

The sound of the DT-880 is much thinner and is totally different than the HD-650, but I prefer that for some types of music. I guess the detail (not just because of the extra treble) and clarity is what I love most. The DT-880 is much less forgiving of my source files than the HD-650. It's funny how on some genres the DT-880 is more engaging and fun to listen to, but in others I prefer the HD-650. Without a doubt, male and female vocals are clearly better on the HD-650. I do prefer the soundstage on the DT-880 for some reason.

 

BTW this CD is quite impressive on the DT-880 and my old ATH-AD2000, but not so much on my HD-650 and I wonder why. It just doesn't feel the same on the HD-650:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_Timbuktu

(Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder)

 

It's hard to put into words why, but it feels as if it's too congested on the HD-650. It feels like I'm missing out on a lot of the detail. Guitar music was really amazing on the ATH-AD2000. I wish those had fit me better.

 

I keep coming up with reasons to get rid of the HD-650, but I really can't. I do feel that the DT-880 is better for some genres to my ears. What I can't get over is how bad some of my music (even ALAC or FLAC) sounds on my DT-880. Basically 90% of everything I have sounds good on the HD-650. On the DT-880 it's easier to spot the garbage tracks, which isn't many. Most of my music is CD or Lossless.

 

I think at this point the DT-880 and HD-650 are both a great pair and sound very different to me. The HD-650 I think overall is the better headphone, but I still love the sound of the DT-880. It does feel much more neutral though and I'm sure most could agree. I wonder if there is actually anyone out there that loves both the DT-880 and HD-650? I imagine there isn't, just how very few love both the K702 and HD-650! It seems that people who love the HD-600/650 absolutely hate the K701!

 

I do think DT-880 is quite boring at times, but it all depends on the music. Overall I feel it's just one step up from being a total bore without coloring the music too much. I imagine there is a lot of music that is terrible on the DT-880. It seems that many genres that the HD-650 does poorly with the DT-880 will do quite well.

 

 


Good read. Thanks for sharing.

 

Judging by your DAC/amp though, I don't think you've heard the true potential of the 650s yet!

 

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