or Connect
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 176

post #2626 of 37369

Quote:

Originally Posted by olor1n View Post

With slight head movements my HD650 makes a creaking sound where the metal extending from the headband swivels on the left housing. It breaks the otherwise great "disappearing" act these cans put on when worn. It's driving me insane. Anyone else have this issue?

 

Hmm, zero creaking for me.  My sympathies though, I can see how it would [drive one insane].


Edited by sphinxvc - 3/6/11 at 8:45am
post #2627 of 37369

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post

Whenever people say they're hearing boomy bass or a small soundstage on the HD650, it's a tell-tale sign that their DAC and amp are low-end. Don't blame revealing headphones for showing you what your system really sounds like.

 

I've seen enough people complain about this that I had to say it...

 

I was going to pick up K701s for kicks but rolling to a better op-amp this week has me rethinking that; the HD650s soundstage has become 3D.  Edge and attack has improved.  I didn't realize the HD650s could be this involving.  It seems the HD650s will outperform the K701s at their own game eventually if I invest in my chain. =/

 

The most annoying thing about these phones is trying to get every last bit out of them, the performance ceiling seems endless.

 


Edited by sphinxvc - 3/6/11 at 8:46am
post #2628 of 37369
Hi, I now have the HD650s and I'm going to make the last purchase for my rig, then close my wallet and block head-fi site from my home biggrin.gif I'm planning to get the Audio GD FUN + MOON as the DAC and the Bottlehead Crack + speedball as the amp. Will that be a good pairing with the HD650 or is there a better equipment for that budget (around $700)?

PS: In the country I live in it's impossible to audition hi-fi equipment so the purchase has to be very precise

Thanks! smily_headphones1.gif
Edited by aroldan - 3/6/11 at 9:43am
post #2629 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Quote:

 

I was going to pick up K701s for kicks but rolling to a better op-amp this week has me rethinking that; the HD650s soundstage has become 3D.  Edge and attack has improved.  I didn't realize the HD650s could be this involving.  It seems the HD650s will outperform the K701s at their own game eventually if I invest in my chain. =/

 

The most annoying thing about these phones is trying to get every last bit out of them, the performance ceiling seems endless.

 


^ I agree.

 

For anyone wanting to read a great review on the HD650s in comparison to other cans in its league, check here: http://www.headfonia.com/old-school-trio-akg-k701-beyer-dt880-sennheiser-hd650/

 

The reviewer nails it. He tests with a wide range of equipment, including the very high-end, which gives a good idea of how much each headphone scales.

 

post #2630 of 37369

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Quote:

 

I was going to pick up K701s for kicks but rolling to a better op-amp this week has me rethinking that; the HD650s soundstage has become 3D.  Edge and attack has improved.  I didn't realize the HD650s could be this involving.  It seems the HD650s will outperform the K701s at their own game eventually if I invest in my chain. =/

 

The most annoying thing about these phones is trying to get every last bit out of them, the performance ceiling seems endless.

 

I don't think the HD650 can beat the K701 at its own game as they play two different games, and neither will the K701 best the HD650 in it own game...no matter what pairing.

 

I agree, the HD650s performance is almost limitless and will scale with hi-end equipment...but only in the areas of soundstaging, imaging, dimensionality and layering.  In terms of raw resolution and slew rate...the limit is easily reached and the HD650 will max out these limitations with very decent equipment...no need to spend a tonne to unlock the full potential in these very objective categories, IME.


 

 

post #2631 of 37369

I tried listening to my HD650's on a bottlehead crack (not sure if it had speedball) that DocB brought for our recent meet and I enjoyed the pairing for what DocB was playing on his tape machine.  Powers the HD650 fairly easily to a comfortable listening level good reproduction of highs while keeping the mids from being overly warm and just enough bass to keep it punchy.  Considering picking up a kit once in a few weeks. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aroldan View Post

Hi, I now have the HD650s and I'm going to make the last purchase for my rig, then close my wallet and block head-fi site from my home biggrin.gif I'm planning to get the Audio GD FUN + MOON as the DAC and the Bottlehead Crack + speedball as the amp. Will that be a good pairing with the HD650 or is there a better equipment for that budget (around $700)?

PS: In the country I live in it's impossible to audition hi-fi equipment so the purchase has to be very precise

Thanks! smily_headphones1.gif


 


Edited by daigo - 3/6/11 at 10:23am
post #2632 of 37369

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

 

I don't think the HD650 can beat the K701 at its own game as they play two different games, and neither will the K701 best the HD650 in it own game...no matter what pairing.

 

I agree, the HD650s performance is almost limitless and will scale with hi-end equipment...but only in the areas of soundstaging, imaging, dimensionality and layering.  In terms of raw resolution and slew rate...the limit is easily reached and the HD650 will max out these limitations with very decent equipment...no need to spend a tonne to unlock the full potential in these very objective categories, IME.

 

The way I understood it, one major area where the K701s trumped the HD650s was the "soundstaging, imaging, dimensionality and layering."  From your profile it seems like you've paired both with low- to high-end chains, what facets of the K701s improved for you as they scaled?  I didn't intend for it to come across as if the HD650s beat the K701s outright at their own sound but it seems they improve well enough on their weakness to render the K701s somewhat expendable.  A "one can solution" with slight compromises.  

 

Any opinion on the review linked above?  

 

[excerpts below]

 

v v v

 

"Once you start using good amplifiers like Woo Audio’s WA6, Burson’s HA-160, Lehmann’s Black Linear, or Grace’s m902, then the HD650 starts to really show its potential. The headphone awakens, and one of the thing that you notice is how it is not as slow and as boring as it was before. The nice thing about the HD650 is how it remains the only headphone among the three that can scale up very well, even close to the level of the $1,000 flagships. For instance, I don’t quite feel that the DT880 and the K701 has enough scalability to be paired to top end amplifiers like the Zana Deux or the Beta22. They improves, but it’s like they’ve hit a limit earlier down the road. On the other hand, the HD650 truly sings on high end systems, as I still enjoy the combination of a HD650 with the Beta22 very much, even while having the Hifiman HE-6 and HD800 around."

 

---

 

"Perhaps the most famous aspect of the K701 is its soundstage. Indeed, the K701 has a very wide soundstage with clear separation of the instruments. The soundstage is very big, and instruments take a clear and distinct positioning within that soundstage. However, on live recordings, the small background detail is cut off in the K701, when they are more faithfully preserved in the DT880 and the HD650. And despite the famous “soundstage” of the K701, I actually rank the soundstage performance as the last of the bunch."

 

---

 

"Having established those parameters, the K701 scores very highly in the width and instrument separation, where you can see every instruments being individually isolated and laid out on the wide soundstage. My complaints with the K701′s soundstage is mostly with the imaging performance, as the lay out of the band and instruments doesn’t follow a logical live concert pattern. The K701′s soundstage is mostly felt on the left and right side of the head, and with very little information on the front. This may give a false impression of being immersed in the sound, as you would feel the instruments coming distinctly from left and right. But on the real world, bands and orchestras perform in front of you, not on your sides around you. And so the front/center soundstage is very important to a faithful reproduction. This is where the K701 fails heavily, as there is very little information on the front/center area of the soundstage."

"Another factor that deeply disturbs the K701′s soundstage presentation is the lack of air between the instruments. The K701 separates the instruments very well with distinct distances between them. Yet, the background is almost too clean. Live recordings almost always have a small amount of air sound — that is, the sound of the air moving around the microphone. And it happens that this air is very critical for achieving a realistic ambiance. On the K701, the air sound is non existant. And while that may help give a clearer separation between the instruments, ultimately it makes the instruments disconnected without a proper “air” between them."

---


Edited by sphinxvc - 3/6/11 at 11:12am
post #2633 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Quote:

 

The way I understood it, one major area where the K701s trumped the HD650s was the "soundstaging, imaging, dimensionality and layering."  From your profile it seems like you've paired both with low- to high-end chains, what facets of the K701s improved for you as they scaled?  I didn't intend for it to come across as if the HD650s beat the K701s outright at their own sound but it seems they improve well enough on their weakness to render the K701s somewhat expendable.  A "one can solution" with slight compromises.  

 

Any opinion on the review linked above?  

 

[excerpts below]

 

v v v

 

"Once you start using good amplifiers like Woo Audio’s WA6, Burson’s HA-160, Lehmann’s Black Linear, or Grace’s m902, then the HD650 starts to really show its potential. The headphone awakens, and one of the thing that you notice is how it is not as slow and as boring as it was before. The nice thing about the HD650 is how it remains the only headphone among the three that can scale up very well, even close to the level of the $1,000 flagships. For instance, I don’t quite feel that the DT880 and the K701 has enough scalability to be paired to top end amplifiers like the Zana Deux or the Beta22. They improves, but it’s like they’ve hit a limit earlier down the road. On the other hand, the HD650 truly sings on high end systems, as I still enjoy the combination of a HD650 with the Beta22 very much, even while having the Hifiman HE-6 and HD800 around."

 

---

 

"Perhaps the most famous aspect of the K701 is its soundstage. Indeed, the K701 has a very wide soundstage with clear separation of the instruments. The soundstage is very big, and instruments take a clear and distinct positioning within that soundstage. However, on live recordings, the small background detail is cut off in the K701, when they are more faithfully preserved in the DT880 and the HD650. And despite the famous “soundstage” of the K701, I actually rank the soundstage performance as the last of the bunch."

 

---

 

"Having established those parameters, the K701 scores very highly in the width and instrument separation, where you can see every instruments being individually isolated and laid out on the wide soundstage. My complaints with the K701′s soundstage is mostly with the imaging performance, as the lay out of the band and instruments doesn’t follow a logical live concert pattern. The K701′s soundstage is mostly felt on the left and right side of the head, and with very little information on the front. This may give a false impression of being immersed in the sound, as you would feel the instruments coming distinctly from left and right. But on the real world, bands and orchestras perform in front of you, not on your sides around you. And so the front/center soundstage is very important to a faithful reproduction. This is where the K701 fails heavily, as there is very little information on the front/center area of the soundstage."

"Another factor that deeply disturbs the K701′s soundstage presentation is the lack of air between the instruments. The K701 separates the instruments very well with distinct distances between them. Yet, the background is almost too clean. Live recordings almost always have a small amount of air sound — that is, the sound of the air moving around the microphone. And it happens that this air is very critical for achieving a realistic ambiance. On the K701, the air sound is non existant. And while that may help give a clearer separation between the instruments, ultimately it makes the instruments disconnected without a proper “air” between them."

---


Huh, fascinating.  I absolutely agree with everything that was written.  Once amped with top line amps, I don't feel that the K701 has a bigger soundstage, more same in size than different.  The K701 doesn't scale as much as the HD650 in terms of layering dimensionality and size.  The HD650 is also a shade quicker than the K701 which explains the "lack of air between instruments" and lesser imaging capability to the HD650.  The HD650 always had a more palpable staging than the K701 IMO.

 

Simply put the K701 is a different tonal presentation for those that have a HRTF that gels well with it, also can give a leash of life to very warm bassy but otherwise clean recordings like the Fugees for instance, though I find these tracks in the minority.

 

With the Black cube linear single ended and the Phoenix balanced there was no improvement with driver speed and slew rate, and those amps were noticeably quicker than my cheaper amps.  But balanced into the Phoenix...the soundstage and imaging did move into a different level.  Others might feel that it got quicker with a bigger stage, because details are less congested in space and more easily picked out.  But I find the details are there as well in with the Black Cube but not as obvious.  The actual definition of the detail...regardless of how easily perceived, to me is exactly the same.

 

The BCL is an old amp.  Amps like the Concerto are newer, better and cheaper IMO.  The Matrix is a replica clone of the BCL for 250 bucks, the Asgard is also a popular budget amp.  IMO the speed of the HD650 just does not get any quicker after a decently competent amp.  Although the layering can scale with the likes of Beta 22 and Phoenix better than any can in my collection, at those prices...the newer flagship headphones are the logical upgrade path, ie T1, HE6, LCD2, HD800, D7000 etc etc.

 

post #2634 of 37369

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

Huh, fascinating.  I absolutely agree with everything that was written.  Once amped with top line amps, I don't feel that the K701 has a bigger soundstage, more same in size than different.  The K701 doesn't scale as much as the HD650 in terms of layering dimensionality and size.  The HD650 is also a shade quicker than the K701 which explains the "lack of air between instruments" and lesser imaging capability to the HD650.  The HD650 always had a more palpable staging than the K701 IMO.

 

Simply put the K701 is a different tonal presentation for those that have a HRTF that gels well with it, also can give a leash of life to very warm bassy but otherwise clean recordings like the Fugees for instance, though I find these tracks in the minority.

 

With the Black cube linear single ended and the Phoenix balanced there was no improvement with driver speed and slew rate, and those amps were noticeably quicker than my cheaper amps.  But balanced into the Phoenix...the soundstage and imaging did move into a different level.  Others might feel that it got quicker with a bigger stage, because details are less congested in space and more easily picked out.  But I find the details are there as well in with the Black Cube but not as obvious.  The actual definition of the detail...regardless of how easily perceived, to me is exactly the same.

 

The BCL is an old amp.  Amps like the Concerto are newer, better and cheaper IMO.  The Matrix is a replica clone of the BCL for 250 bucks, the Asgard is also a popular budget amp.  IMO the speed of the HD650 just does not get any quicker after a decently competent amp.  Although the layering can scale with the likes of Beta 22 and Phoenix better than any can in my collection, at those prices...the newer flagship headphones are the logical upgrade path, ie T1, HE6, LCD2, HD800, D7000 etc etc.

 


Helpful, thanks.  

post #2635 of 37369

So what amp offers the largest soundstage for the HD-650?. I find it hard to believe that Sennheiser meant for the HD-650 to have such a massively huge soundstage. The sound just wouldn't be the same I think. I basically have to take these comments with a grain of salt and I don't want to have to invest in a new $600+ amp to test this out. I'm not really that serious about audio. I prefer to spend no more than $600 for an amp or headphone.

 

At the moment the soundstage of the HD-650 seems more closed in and smaller compared to the HD-598. The HD-598 soundstage just feels huge in comparison, but not as large as the AD700. Someday I hope Sennheiser could create a headphone with the upper mids, clarity and detail of the HD-650, but with a soundstage the size of the HD-598 (without a $600+ amp). Whenever I take off the HD-650 and put on the HD-598 the difference is like night and day in the size of the soundstage.

post #2636 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

So what amp offers the largest soundstage for the HD-650?. I find it hard to believe that Sennheiser meant for the HD-650 to have such a massively huge soundstage. The sound just wouldn't be the same I think. I basically have to take these comments with a grain of salt and I don't want to have to invest in a new $600+ amp to test this out. I'm not really that serious about audio. I prefer to spend no more than $600 for an amp or headphone.

 

At the moment the soundstage of the HD-650 seems more closed in and smaller compared to the HD-598. The HD-598 soundstage just feels huge in comparison, but not as large as the AD700. Someday I hope Sennheiser could create a headphone with the upper mids, clarity and detail of the HD-650, but with a soundstage the size of the HD-598 (without a $600+ amp). Whenever I take off the HD-650 and put on the HD-598 the difference is like night and day in the size of the soundstage.


It's not just the amp, it's also the source. The entire setup/chain matters. You can be skeptical all you want, but when you hear it you're in for a treat.

 

To be fair though, the HD598 and AD700 have a pretty good soundstage.

 

post #2637 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

So what amp offers the largest soundstage for the HD-650?. I find it hard to believe that Sennheiser meant for the HD-650 to have such a massively huge soundstage. The sound just wouldn't be the same I think. I basically have to take these comments with a grain of salt and I don't want to have to invest in a new $600+ amp to test this out. I'm not really that serious about audio. I prefer to spend no more than $600 for an amp or headphone.

 

At the moment the soundstage of the HD-650 seems more closed in and smaller compared to the HD-598. The HD-598 soundstage just feels huge in comparison, but not as large as the AD700. Someday I hope Sennheiser could create a headphone with the upper mids, clarity and detail of the HD-650, but with a soundstage the size of the HD-598 (without a $600+ amp). Whenever I take off the HD-650 and put on the HD-598 the difference is like night and day in the size of the soundstage.


Soundstage IMO is very subjective and related to an individuals HRTF.  I find some people are more able to perceive a bigger soundstage as the frequencies in the uppermidrange gain more amplitude over neighbouring frequencies below it.  I think you fall in this category, for instance, I own the HD595 and its tonality is slightly leaner than the HD650, and I do not believe it is drastically different to the HD598, but for me - the HD595 could not compete with the HD650s "headstage".  I believe there are many that can never perceive the HD650's staging to be as almost as large as the K701, no matter how exotically amped. 

 

WRT what I think gave my HD650 the largest overall soundstage, it would have to be my all tube Cayin HA1A in SET mode.  The Phoenix balanced into the HD650s is a close second, but overall the Phoenix delivers a much more 3 dimensional stage with better layering, separation and sharper imaging.  Also I agree with Shahrose...the source is just as important as the amp in delivering a quality soundscape.

 

IMO I can never recommend for a HD650 owner to spend 2 grand on a dac and 2 grand on an amp...to drive a 300 dollar headphone.  OTOH, I firmly believe the new generation flagships deserve the best amp and dac one can reasonably afford.  Providing that good research is carried out, IMO one can spend the same amount that was spent on a headphone for a dac and amp in exactly the same price bracket and walk away knowing the headphone doesn't really have much more to give, in that the laws of diminishing return really kick in hard.

 

So IMO, if you do the correct research, $300 - $400 for the HD650, then a dac in the same price bracket and an amp in the same bracket can give excellent results.  That would be the minimum and what one should save up for.  Just a general guideline and IMO of course.

post #2638 of 37369

Does anyone else think that the HD-650 has slightly more forward upper mids compared to the HD-600 (and not anything else) or is just my imagination?

I always liked my HD-600 a lot, but compared to the HD-650 it felt very, very slightly muffled and a lot less clear. The level of detail didn't quite feel as high as it is on the HD-650.

I always look for a headphone with great female vocals and the HD-650 seems to be perfect for this. The HD-600 was so-so or just good in this area.

 

I don't know if maybe I had an older HD-600. I'll need to check into some threads and see if the HD-600 was also updated with the new white fabric to make it a tad brighter.

Despite having the HD-600 in early 2010, I think maybe I had the older version, which seemed more veiled and less clear.

 

I have no plans on getting rid of my HD-650 and love it. I just prefer the bass quantity of the HD-600 over the HD-650. HD-600 is also better for gaming, not that I bought the HD-650 for that!

 

So does anyone else agree with me that the new HD-650's sound feels more clear than the HD-600 and seems to do better with female vocals?

Maybe it's just my imagination, but when I upgraded to the newer HD-650 I was actually impressed with the difference in sound, but I'm not a fan of it's bass with some songs.

Seems to have about 5% more bass than I want, but I guess I'm too picky. Overall the HD-650 to my ears feels like a 20% improvement over the HD-600.

 

I'm just tempted to eventually try the HD-600 again and be able to compare them side by side. I do like the more neutral HD-600, but will probably miss so many things about the HD-650 that I like.

post #2639 of 37369

hmmm do you really think the ADA4627-1B is better than moon/earth?

 

im going to swap the earth for moon this weekend and burn it in to see if i prefer it

 

then maybe ill try the ADA4627-1B

post #2640 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

Does anyone else think that the HD-650 has slightly more forward upper mids compared to the HD-600 (and not anything else) or is just my imagination?

I always liked my HD-600 a lot, but compared to the HD-650 it felt very, very slightly muffled and a lot less clear. The level of detail didn't quite feel as high as it is on the HD-650.

I always look for a headphone with great female vocals and the HD-650 seems to be perfect for this. The HD-600 was so-so or just good in this area.

 

I don't know if maybe I had an older HD-600. I'll need to check into some threads and see if the HD-600 was also updated with the new white fabric to make it a tad brighter.

Despite having the HD-600 in early 2010, I think maybe I had the older version, which seemed more veiled and less clear.

 

I have no plans on getting rid of my HD-650 and love it. I just prefer the bass quantity of the HD-600 over the HD-650. HD-600 is also better for gaming, not that I bought the HD-650 for that!

 

So does anyone else agree with me that the new HD-650's sound feels more clear than the HD-600 and seems to do better with female vocals?

Maybe it's just my imagination, but when I upgraded to the newer HD-650 I was actually impressed with the difference in sound, but I'm not a fan of it's bass with some songs.

Seems to have about 5% more bass than I want, but I guess I'm too picky. Overall the HD-650 to my ears feels like a 20% improvement over the HD-600.

 

I'm just tempted to eventually try the HD-600 again and be able to compare them side by side. I do like the more neutral HD-600, but will probably miss so many things about the HD-650 that I like.


I've owned several pairs of both, and I'm certain that the HD650 has *less* forward upper mids/lower treble than the HD600. I also compared both using about 4 different cables (in addition to their stock cables) and the results were the same.

 

Important: For your comparison to be accurate, the earpads of both headphones have to be in similar condition, they both have to be burned in, and both have to have the newer silver acoustic-silk.

 

As for vocal presentation...I think both do well, but I still prefer the HD650s for both male/female vocals.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Headphones (full-size)
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Headphones (full-size) › Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread