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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 158

post #2356 of 36885

they will be fine then.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkymonkcp View Post

They are playing at normal listening volume.
 


 
post #2357 of 36885

Do you have any recommendations then? I'm willing to spend about $400-500.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by BChizzle View Post

Hi guys, i didn't want to start a thread.. but am hoping for a reply soon. Should i buy the HD650s if i'm not going to have an amp? How big is the sound difference?  I'm pretty much gonna use these for listening in bed or plaing games..Thanks

 

No.

post #2358 of 36885

well the hd 650 cost about 350 + shipping so u have 100 to spend on an amp, just save up alil more and buy a 200-300 amp and ur set
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BChizzle View Post

Do you have any recommendations then? I'm willing to spend about $400-500.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by BChizzle View Post

Hi guys, i didn't want to start a thread.. but am hoping for a reply soon. Should i buy the HD650s if i'm not going to have an amp? How big is the sound difference?  I'm pretty much gonna use these for listening in bed or plaing games..Thanks

 

No.


 
post #2359 of 36885

Quote:

Originally Posted by BChizzle View Post

Do you have any recommendations then? I'm willing to spend about $400-500.
 

 

This is quite off-topic & since you already posted in this thread I'll just answer you there.

post #2360 of 36885

Originally Posted by BChizzle View Post


Hi guys, i didn't want to start a thread.. but am hoping for a reply soon. Should i buy the HD650s if i'm not going to have an amp? How big is the sound difference?  I'm pretty much gonna use these for listening in bed or plaing games..Thanks


No.

If you realy want the Sennheiser without an amp the HD598 is probably your best option.

post #2361 of 36885

What's the definition of an amp in this context? Don't forget that a quality integrated or receiver can be had off Ebay for very little.

post #2362 of 36885

I just ordered a used STEFAN AUDIO ART equinox cable!  Can't wait till it gets here!!

post #2363 of 36885
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

What's the definition of an amp in this context? Don't forget that a quality integrated or receiver can be had off Ebay for very little.



Headphone jacks on receivers simply take a fat resistor and stick it between the phone and the amp.  The high output impedance creates very low damping, so bass is fat and flabby and the SQ is low.  An "amp" would really be a dedicated desktop, portable, or home headphone amp.  The price can be $70 to thousands, but lot's of great DAC/Amp combos are to be had from iBasso, RSA, NuForce and all sorts of others from $100-$500 that will work well with the 650.  On the other hand, a cheap eBay receiver will reduce these to mediocrity...

post #2364 of 36885

Your first two sentences might sound fine in theory, but practice is a different matter. I've used HD595 and HD650s for years with integrated amps (I'm currently using a Marantz PM5003) with excellent results. I've also listened to dedicated HP amps (LD Mk V, Cute Beyond, MF X-Can 2) and heard no difference whatsoever. The "fat resistor" you speak of isn't so fat (usually 220 ohms), and in my experience is totally innocuous, certainly with high impedance phones like the 650. As for the "cheap Ebay receiver", I was referring to quality brands like Marantz, Rotel and NAD of just a few years vintage, all of which are capable of very fine results. I wonder how many you've tried yourself? 

post #2365 of 36885

love my 650s with SAA equinox and my apache!

post #2366 of 36885
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post

Your first two sentences might sound fine in theory, but practice is a different matter. I've used HD595 and HD650s for years with integrated amps (I'm currently using a Marantz PM5003) with excellent results. I've also listened to dedicated HP amps (LD Mk V, Cute Beyond, MF X-Can 2) and heard no difference whatsoever. The "fat resistor" you speak of isn't so fat (usually 220 ohms), and in my experience is totally innocuous, certainly with high impedance phones like the 650. As for the "cheap Ebay receiver", I was referring to quality brands like Marantz, Rotel and NAD of just a few years vintage, all of which are capable of very fine results. I wonder how many you've tried yourself? 


I simplified a bit, but FYI, I have designed amps, listened to hundreds of them, and experimented with output impedance and speaker design interactions many times.  What I said is correct, though perhaps I over-simplified.  In audio engineering there are always twists that make the issue more complex.  

 

Tom wrote a nice, non-engineer friendly explanation with charts that shows this nicely, for anyone interested.

 

http://www.avguide.com/blog/why-headphone-amps-sound-different-frequency-responseimpedance-issues

 

In slightly longer form: the degree of effect is simply a function of the headphone impedance curve, and the ratio of the output impedance to the headphone impedance.  


The reason is simple: the output circuit is essentially a voltage divider, and as the headphone will have a bump in the bass range, high output impedance on the amp will cause the voltage to vary at the headphone, in the same places the impedance varies.  The power that is delivered follows the function v*v/R (again, a bit of a simplification, as it's really Z not R, but that gets into more complex math).  Since the voltage effect is squared but the impedance effect is linear, the higher the output Z *relative to the headphone*, the greater the effect will be.

 

A high-Z can like a HD650 is less sensitive to output impedance and will be pretty happy on any amp as long as the voltage and current are there. A low Z can will be more sensitive, unless it has a really bumpy impedance curve.  That's why your particular choice of phones is less sensitive to the effect.  But even with my 650, I can and do hear the difference on my Onkyo vs. my Burson, which are 5 and 300+ ohms output impedance, respectively.  On the Onkyo, the 650 sounds muddy.  My JH16s sound dreadful, but that is because they are multiple driver, low Z devices, so the effect is predictably greater.

 

So it's a bit more nuanced than I indicated, but for the majority of phones, which are low impedance, what I said is particularly relevant.  Perhaps this may be why Sennheiser made the 650 Z so high...  It's a less dependent of the amp output Z for frequency power specturm...  Since this is a 650 thread I should have moderated my statement as it's at the far end of the impedance bell curve less effected by this.

 

 

Lastly whether you CARE or personally can perceive this is another issue.  Some people probably really like the bass boost that results, especially if you're a bass head it may be just what you want.  Others, like me, are sensitive to mid-bass and bass specturm changes and object to the effect.  Some people really don't notice 1-3dB changes, but to me, they're glaring.

 

beerchug.gif

post #2367 of 36885
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satellite_6 View Post

I know this is the appreciation thread but I'm seriously thinking about giving up on the HD 650's. They aren't boring and they are pretty amazing in many respects, but they are too bright for me and I think I might like something more musical. . .

If headphones are usually brighter than the HD 650's I have no idea where to turn though. . .

 

Yeah I know. . . I'm crazy. :(

 


No, you're not crazy! I think, too, that HD-650 are way too bright!

I believe that biggest problem with headphones is the unavoidable resonances that occur because of the close proximity of the sound source to the ear. Unfortunately, these resonances are different for every individual. Sennheiser has taken into account this effect for the majority of listeners, but, in my case and probably yours, it hasn't succeeded.

I strongly recommend these threads

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/444694/eq-almost-impossible-need-to-filter-the-sine-wave

for equalizing HD650 to your particular ear resonances.

I have and found the musical bliss that I was looking for!

post #2368 of 36885

Too...bright?  blink.gif

 

I was just about to post that I'm entertaining the idea of a silver cable because the top end in certain tracks isn't forward enough.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, on the contrary.  To me, this just reinforces that human hearing is a sort of bell curve.  And that unless you're within 1 standard deviation of the mean, most of the impressions on this site mean nothing.


Edited by sphinxvc - 2/3/11 at 4:00pm
post #2369 of 36885

Interestingly I found the 650 too bright when I first started using it.  My perception acclimated a bit the more I listened, but I also changed out my dac/amp and started using Pure Music software and it really felt markedly less sharp and far more liquid.  It's definitely brighter than the JH16, but not irritatingly so...  

 

post #2370 of 36885
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinxvc View Post

I'm not disagreeing with you, on the contrary.  To me, this just reinforces that human hearing is a sort of bell curve.  And that unless you're within 1 standard deviation of the mean, most of the impressions on this site mean nothing.  (Especially with consensus opinions.)


I agree, although more than being meaningless, I think the challenge in head-fi is finding out which people have listening preferences similar to you, so that you can get the most info from the site.

 

And even when you find people with very different tastes/HRTF/etc, you can get pretty valuable information regardless if you learn more or less what their parameters of judging are.

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