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Sennheiser HD650 Impressions Thread - Page 91

post #1351 of 36851


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post




I don't disagree, but I would caution against trying to iron out specific small peaks. Firstly,

small peaks are rarely audible; it's the overall frequency balance of a phone that determines its signature. Secondly, what shows up as small peaks in one trace may not show up in another taken under different conditions, or different peaks may show in different positions; it's not that exact a science. And what shows as peaks under measuring conditions may not be relevant to your ears, since the interaction of ears and phones is different for each individual. In short, I think to some degree you'll end up chasing your own tail.
 

Thanks for the advice. At the moment I'm just trying to turn down the treble with a graphic equalizer using the possible peaks as a guideline, I probably won't bother trying to equalize them completely w/ a PEQ. At the moment the cymbals are really annoying me. . .
 

post #1352 of 36851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satellite_6 View Post


 

Thanks for the advice. At the moment I'm just trying to turn down the treble with a graphic equalizer using the possible peaks as a guideline, I probably won't bother trying to equalize them completely w/ a PEQ. At the moment the cymbals are really annoying me. . .
 



One further point. Graphic equaliser inevitably introduce distortion. If you've spent a wad of money to get the best amp for your phones, a graphic equaliser will probably remove whatever virtues it has over a lesser amp.

post #1353 of 36851
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp312 View Post





One further point. Graphic equaliser inevitably introduce distortion. If you've spent a wad of money to get the best amp for your phones, a graphic equaliser will probably remove whatever virtues it has over a lesser amp.

huh? Turning down the mid-bass, the upper mids, and higher frequencies with the graphic equalizer in Foobar2000 seems to make the 650s sound clearer and much more neutral to me. I've always used graphic equalizers to turn down frequencies that are too loud, I wasn't aware this could introduce distortion. . .
 

post #1354 of 36851

EQ's have their place in some applications, for example in a car where the environment is awful for good sound reproduction, but on a home hifi system you shouldn't really need to be using an EQ.

 

Good well designed EQ's will boost/cut frequencies by very subtle amounts, but distortion can be introduced and for my mind they are best left alone.

post #1355 of 36851

hmmm. . . well I'll always be using an equalizer with the 650s. . . they just aren't flat enough for me. I find it impossible to believe that turning the loud frequencies down w/ an equalizer does more harm then good. Whether on my DAPs or at home it always seems to help. If you shouldn't be using an equalizer with a hifi setup, I'm going to need a different pair of headphones one day, along with better DAC/amp.

post #1356 of 36851
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

Yeah they sound bright to me as well, I had to boost the treble to make them darker.



I was wondering if you could explain this a little, since it caught my attention. To my understanding a bright sound is understood as having emphasized lower treble (or upper midrange maybe), while a dark sound has weak treble (relative to the other frequencies), and by that definitions I find the 650 a tad dark (which is congruent with them having a very low harmonic distortion combined with their frequency response). So I wonder if you are using the terms differently, because from that I don't think you can make a headphone darker by boosting the treble, quite the opposite.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Satellite_6 View Post


 

Thanks for the advice. At the moment I'm just trying to turn down the treble with a graphic equalizer using the possible peaks as a guideline, I probably won't bother trying to equalize them completely w/ a PEQ. At the moment the cymbals are really annoying me. . .
 


If you would like a good read about the peaks in the headphones I would look at the measurements that Tyll made to the HD800 in the thread of his new measurements lab. It varied quite a bit when changing the positioning in the head, just another point of caution when using another person's recommendations when eq'ing the headphones.

post #1357 of 36851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satellite_6 View Post



huh? Turning down the mid-bass, the upper mids, and higher frequencies with the graphic equalizer in Foobar2000 seems to make the 650s sound clearer and much more neutral to me. I've always used graphic equalizers to turn down frequencies that are too loud, I wasn't aware this could introduce distortion. . .
 



I was of course referring to an external graphic equaliser, not Foobar. In my day (now listen to this, you young whippersnappers)...in my day all we had was these metal boxes with sliders, see. No such thing as Foobar back then, I can tell you....  (hobbles off on walking frame)

 

More seriously, but not much more, if you turn down all the frequencies you've said you turn down, I'm surprised you hear anything at all.  :)

post #1358 of 36851

Hey guys, I'm hoping to become an owner of HD650's in the next month as my bday is approaching and I think I'm pretty set on getting 650's over the AKG 701's. I'm thinking about pairing them with Little Dot Mk lV (not the SE, hear the difference not worth extra $100), do you guys think they would pair better with MK IV's or MK V's or is it just a personal preference between Tubes and Solid State. I'm listen to my music via foobar2000-ASIO-Auzentech prelude-amp-HD650. Would my auzentech prelude make a good source or should I invest in a better dac (I really don't want to unless it will make a big difference) I want to achieve the best possible listening experience with the 650's and don't want to upgrade for quite some time but it seems like I'm getting addicted to high quality sound. I wanted to ask in this thread since most people on here are experts and own these headphones.

post #1359 of 36851

good thread!!!!

post #1360 of 36851


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Strummer View Post
I was wondering if you could explain this a little, since it caught my attention. To my understanding a bright sound is understood as having emphasized lower treble (or upper midrange maybe), while a dark sound has weak treble (relative to the other frequencies), and by that definitions I find the 650 a tad dark (which is congruent with them having a very low harmonic distortion combined with their frequency response). So I wonder if you are using the terms differently, because from that I don't think you can make a headphone darker by boosting the treble, quite the opposite.
 
A silly subtle joke that should be best left ignored.  It was in relation to Sat 6's view the HD650 as excessively bright - contrary to popular opinion.
post #1361 of 36851

I just love the mid-range of the HD650.  In many ways it is the most realistic sounding headphone  to me.  If I could couple the HD650's mid-bass and mid-range with the K701's treble (the HD800 overdid the treble in my opinion) and the D7000 sub-bass (perhaps because of the overdone treble the HD800 bass presence falls well short). It would be PERFECTO.  I think this was the principle objective of the HD800 but I feel they have just missed the mark.

post #1362 of 36851
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

A silly subtle joke that should be best left ignored.  It was in relation to Sat 6's view the HD650 as excessively bright - contrary to popular opinion.
 



Sorry for that, without emoticons or something your commentary sounded pretty serious .
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

I just love the mid-range of the HD650.  In many ways it is the most realistic sounding headphone  to me.  


Although I don't share some of the other things you said, I completely agree, the 650 has one of the best midranges I've heard, and definitely its strong point, and what makes them special.

post #1363 of 36851


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Strummer View Post





Sorry for that, without emoticons or something your commentary sounded pretty serious .
 


Although I don't share some of the other things you said, I completely agree, the 650 has one of the best midranges I've heard, and definitely its strong point, and what makes them special.


I auditioned the HD800 with the BCL - I also own this amp.  The source was a Cambridge 650 CD player - possibly an analytical/slightly brighter source if it sounded similar to the Dacmagic which I also owned.  The treble drove me insane with fatigue within 20 minutes of auditioning.  I pleaded for the store to loan me the HD800 (I would pay full retail for security) as I would be able to partner it to my own source, a Bryston BDA-1, known to have less distortion and a more warmer musical presentation to my own dacmagic - they would not allow me, something to do with contracts with Sennheiser (I believe them because they always loan me things with a deposit).  I may well have an HD800 with me right now, but without that last confirmation process, I was unable to commit to purchase.  The actual purchase process was a pain in the ass - the store had no stock - it was to be sent out direct from Sennheiser as per contract.

 

I am a simpleton - I like to deal in cash and a physical exchange - Senheissers strict policy do me no favors.  The latest incarnation of Sennheisers corporate strategy is just.....look at it this way, I'd be rolling in my grave.

post #1364 of 36851
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post


 


I auditioned the HD800 with the BCL - I also own this amp.  The source was a Cambridge 650 CD player - possibly an analytical/slightly brighter source if it sounded similar to the Dacmagic which I also owned.  The treble drove me insane with fatigue within 20 minutes of auditioning.  I pleaded for the store to loan me the HD800 (I would pay full retail for security) as I would be able to partner it to my own source, a Bryston BDA-1, known to have less distortion and a more warmer musical presentation to my own dacmagic - they would not allow me, something to do with contracts with Sennheiser (I believe them because they always loan me things with a deposit).  I may well have an HD800 with me right now, but without that last confirmation process, I was unable to commit to purchase.  The actual purchase process was a pain in the ass - the store had no stock - it was to be sent out direct from Sennheiser as per contract.

 

I am a simpleton - I like to deal in cash and a physical exchange - Senheissers strict policy do me no favors.  The latest incarnation of Sennheisers corporate strategy is just.....look at it this way, I'd be rolling in my grave.

 


That is some crappy strategy, and I completely understand you, since by that criteria I'm also a simpleton. Even though I've developed sites that use electronic commerce, I personally shop physically with cash almost everything.

 

But through the weekend I've been doing some critical listening through the 800 and the 650, and one thing that is markedly different between the HD650 and the HD800 is how they reproduce sibilance, if there is sibilance in the recording, the 800 will reveal it, and slightly exaggerate it I think (and due to that, I've been thinking of eq'ing or making the mod that JaZZ made). Meanwhile I've found that the HD650 are "under sibilant". When there is sibilance in the recording the 650 seem to tame it (which by the way I think it is a very good thing), I have yet to hear some serious sibilance through the 650. Judging by that there is a subset of the 6k-8k frequencies that the 800 might overdo (and just as a cultural note, the Qualias overdid a subset very similarly), while the 650 might underdo it (and that helps to give them there smooth character). So I don't disagree that much with what you said previously.


Edited by Roger Strummer - 5/23/10 at 4:57pm
post #1365 of 36851


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Strummer View Post



 


That is some crappy strategy, and I completely understand you, since by that criteria I'm also a simpleton. Even though I've developed sites that use electronic commerce, I personally shop physically with cash almost everything.

 

But through the weekend I've been doing some critical listening through the 800 and the 650, and one thing that is markedly different between the HD650 and the HD800 is how they reproduce sibilance, if there is sibilance in the recording, the 800 will reveal it, and slightly exaggerate it I think (and due to that, I've been thinking of eq'ing or making the mod that JaZZ made). Meanwhile I've found that the HD650 are "under sibilant". When there is sibilance in the recording the 650 seem to tame it (which by the way I think it is a very good thing), I have yet to hear some serious sibilance through the 650. Judging by that there is a subset of the 6k-8k frequencies that the 800 might overdo (and just as a cultural note, the Qualias overdid a subset very similarly), while the 650 might underdo it (and that helps to give them there smooth character). So I don't disagree that much with what you said previously.


Interestingly enough the second time I auditioned the HD800 (twice I auditioned it second time I brought my valve amp and found the HD800 took away what I liked about the valve amp - making it sound solid state like????) I ended up purchasing the D7000, one minor reason that swayed me was that I felt upon auditioning that the D7000 equaled the HD800's treble with more bass substance...Now I battle sibilance issues with the D7000, the single most annoying fault of these fine phones.....

 

The HD650 has a beautiful and underdamped treble that is forgiving of the worst treble crimes.  But I feel the champion treble reproducer that I have heard, that sounds the most natural belongs to the.....K701.  Never too sibilant, never too underdamped...you could forgive the low bass presence....if it weren't for the flawed upper mids.

 

The HD650 plays it safe...Thank goodness such a phone exists - with no major fatal flaws...or I'd gone insane trying to find a phone I liked.  As for the smooth nature - the rolled of treble will have something to do with it....but some interesting news is Tyll's latest distortion measurements made in his new chamber...The HD600 measured lowest of distortion in a range of measured popular reference headphones, including the HD800...The HD650 is said to have an even lower measured distortion than the HD600 on previous measurements (yet to be confirmed in the new chamber)...That smoothness also can be attributed to this low distortion figure.  This I am forced to agree with...because when I first got my hi-end bryston dac my initial complaint was that it was "too smooth" and "rolled off" compared the dacmagic....with adaptation and research...it was the lower distortion giving that impression.

 

I found the HD800 had a midrange equally as smooth as the HD650....but problematic in the treble range...on paper the distortion in the HD800 in the treble ranges is what gives the HD600 the lead in distortion numbers.  On a final note...it wasn't precisely the overcooked treble that killed the HD800 for me although it contributed massively to it.  It seems I am the only one to bring it up, it is the gigantic "phase effect" soundstage that my brain could not comprehend that led to listening fatigue within 20 minutes, in a way I have never felt before.  The K701 will do it after listening at way too loud levels or for too long.  The HD800 overdoes it when the volume was not very loud in a very short duration in a manner that literally destroyed my mind.


Edited by SP Wild - 5/23/10 at 6:25pm
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