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Sennheiser HD650 Appreciation Thread!! - Page 857

post #12841 of 16970

Your notion sounds very similar to my order with Brian at BTG Audio.  I'm getting an 8 strand silver plated copper cable, for my HD650s.  Its going to be terminated in a mini-4 pin XLR connector.  I don't have any amps that are mini-4 pin, but it lends itself best with adapter cables.  I have 4, 8" adapter cables all with female mini-4pin.  And the four other ends are going to be RSA, 4 pin XLR, 1/8" Switchcraft. and 1/4" Switchcraft.

 

I'm at least a week or two from getting my order, or I'd snap a few photos for you...

post #12842 of 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtUglyJeff View Post

Your notion sounds very similar to my order with Brian at BTG Audio.  I'm getting an 8 strand silver plated copper cable, for my HD650s.  Its going to be terminated in a mini-4 pin XLR connector.  I don't have any amps that are mini-4 pin, but it lends itself best with adapter cables.  I have 4, 8" adapter cables all with female mini-4pin.  And the four other ends are going to be RSA, 4 pin XLR, 1/8" Switchcraft. and 1/4" Switchcraft.

 

I'm at least a week or two from getting my order, or I'd snap a few photos for you...

 

That might be soon enough for me (too many medical appointments in the next week). 

 

One detail: do any amps use mini XLR?  If so, I'd try to use that pin assignment on the main cable. Or perhaps there is a standard assignment.  Otherwise, it's rather arbitrary, being just an adapter.  

 

Not sure whose cable I could use.  Cardas is a long-time favorite, and friend, and the technology of that tiny little cable is amazing... the number of strands and the materials, gauges, and geometry that goes into it.  Go to the Cardas website, and see the cable animation for their new in-ear "Earspeakers)... that tiny cable is the same as what I'm using now.  

post #12843 of 16970

http://btg-audio.com/webstore.htm#!/~/product/category=2609076&id=11559114

 

This is basically what I ordered.  The only exception is I'm also getting the black nylon sleeve, and of course the mini 4 pin...

post #12844 of 16970

Let me preface this post, I honestly don't mean to offend anyone who spends their hard earned money on third party aftermarket HP cables but I don't understand why anyone would want to...

 

I work for the largest media broadcasting company in Canada in the broadcast engineering department and long before that I learned that the most important thing in a signal cable is shielding. Oxygen free copper as as good a conductor as it comes for audio applications. Virtually all aftermarket cables are a placebo for "Audiophiles" and nothing more. All top HP manufactures know this and design their stock cables to match their reference designs for optimum performance.

 

Spending crazy amounts of money on after market HP cables may give buyers the impression (or illusion) of improved SQ but realistically they just paid too much for something they had in the first pace.

 

But I digress, it's your money and if you feel that a $100 or even a $1000 HP cable gives you better SQ then all the power to you. Marketing is a powerful tool and made many a snake oil salesman rich.

 

David Hannum once famously said: "There's a sucker born ever minute".

post #12845 of 16970

A lot of people don't buy cables for SQ improvement. Like me. I buy them for the increased durability, more flexible, custom length for me, and they feel a lot better(stuff like shielding.)

post #12846 of 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfetan44 View Post

A lot of people don't buy cables for SQ improvement. Like me. I buy them for the increased durability, more flexible, custom length for me, and they feel a lot better(stuff like shielding.)

The durability argument I can somewhat understand but in a non-professional home environment there is still probably not enough stresses put on HP cables day-to-day to warrant the outlandish cost some third party cable vendors command for their products...


Edited by Ear-Wax - 7/6/13 at 4:06pm
post #12847 of 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ear-Wax View Post

Let me preface this post, I honestly don't mean to offend anyone who spends their hard earned money on third party aftermarket HP cables but I don't understand why anyone would want to...

 

I work for the largest media broadcasting company in Canada in the broadcast engineering department and long before that I learned that the most important thing in a signal cable is shielding. Oxygen free copper as as good a conductor as it comes for audio applications. Virtually all aftermarket cables are a placebo for "Audiophiles" and nothing more. All top HP manufactures know this and design their stock cables to match their reference designs for optimum performance.

 

Spending crazy amounts of money on after market HP cables may give buyers the impression (or illusion) of improved SQ but realistically they just paid too much for something they had in the first pace.

 

But I digress, it's your money and if you feel that a $100 or even a $1000 HP cable gives you better SQ then all the power to you. Marketing is a powerful tool and made many a snake oil salesman rich.

 

David Hannum once famously said: "There's a sucker born ever minute".

 

I realize your experience is real for you.  But keep in mind we have people, some like me with decades of experience with top cables and equipment in high-end audio as well as degrees such as physics, plus are close to cable manufacturers.  First hand experience, at least with home equipment that has different and perhaps relaxed specs compared to pro gear, has shown significant differences in sound quality.  This isn't the place to debate it further.  Plus, those of us with the experience simply note that you are not exposed to this and so are (in the kindest sense) "ignorant" or perhaps better to say "a beginner" in the domain.  BTW, I know many pro audio folks, whose reputations and profits depend on sound quality for recording, monitoring, mixing and mastering top orchestras and ensembles, that indicate cables as being significant in this respect, even to the point of listing their equipment on the release notes. 

 

Engineers are trained to use "lumped parameters" and break systems and cables down theoretically into separable variables. This by definition means that (a) they assume they are aware of all relevant effects, and (b) they are separable and linear.  Such engineers then latch onto any explanation that allows them to keep their simplistic theories.  Only first-hand experience ever breaks open their view to find the next higher level of complexity that might explain the observations.  I'm trained in engineering, but also physics, and philosophy... and I find one must look at theory, experiment, observer, AND the blindnesses associated with each. Yes, false positive differences do occur, but mostly false negatives occur, if you review the literature on audio difference testing by Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, et al. I've studied under the late Dick Heyser (look up his inventions and industry positions) and others.  I also had a few conversations with this guy, the late Richard Feyman, whose simple video here addresses the method that is forgotten by those who stick to their theoretical training and thus remain closed: 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b240PGCMwV0


Edited by Stoney - 7/6/13 at 4:43pm
post #12848 of 16970

Somebody needs to go to a Head-Fi meet....

post #12849 of 16970
@butt-ugly - I'm with you regarding cables. Brian @ BTG Audio is as well. He uses good quality parts and does the work for those who don't want to, at a pretty reasonable price. He does offer boutique wire and bits for those who want to pay for it. Ok, back to HD650's...
post #12850 of 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ear-Wax View Post

Let me preface this post, I honestly don't mean to offend anyone who spends their hard earned money on third party aftermarket HP cables but I don't understand why anyone would want to...

 

I work for the largest media broadcasting company in Canada in the broadcast engineering department and long before that I learned that the most important thing in a signal cable is shielding. Oxygen free copper as as good a conductor as it comes for audio applications. Virtually all aftermarket cables are a placebo for "Audiophiles" and nothing more. All top HP manufactures know this and design their stock cables to match their reference designs for optimum performance.

 

Spending crazy amounts of money on after market HP cables may give buyers the impression (or illusion) of improved SQ but realistically they just paid too much for something they had in the first pace.

 

But I digress, it's your money and if you feel that a $100 or even a $1000 HP cable gives you better SQ then all the power to you. Marketing is a powerful tool and made many a snake oil salesman rich.

 

David Hannum once famously said: "There's a sucker born ever minute".

Watching the Video of Axel, the head Sennheiser at engineer, listen to a pair of HD800's with Toxic Cables at the London meet was really interesting. Even he was convinced...

post #12851 of 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoney View Post

 

I realize your experience is real for you.  But keep in mind we have people, some like me with decades of experience with top cables and equipment in high-end audio as well as degrees such as physics, plus are close to cable manufacturers.  First hand experience, at least with home equipment that has different and perhaps relaxed specs compared to pro gear, has shown significant differences in sound quality.  This isn't the place to debate it further.  Plus, those of us with the experience simply note that you are not exposed to this and so are (in the kindest sense) "ignorant" or perhaps better to say "a beginner" in the domain.  BTW, I know many pro audio folks, whose reputations and profits depend on sound quality for recording, monitoring, mixing and mastering top orchestras and ensembles, that indicate cables as being significant in this respect, even to the point of listing their equipment on the release notes. 

Stoney, to assume that I am new or even a beginner in this domain is, well, just "ignorant" if I may quote you.

 

I have been working actively in the professional audio recording business, both live and in-studio in Europe and North America since 1984. It's only since the latter part of of the 1990's that I have branched out to the broadcast video production business.

 

You know what they say about assumptions...

 

Not once did I claim that professional production grade, balanced signal cables are in any way connected to the issue I brought up with HP enthusiasts buying expensive HP cables. Professional grade signal cables have their applications and those costs are justified. It is the perception of $xxx aftermarket HP cables that may provide better dynamics or a wider sound stage is a myth I question.

 

In the end, how people want to spend their money is their business. I personally prefer to invest my money into the companies that supply the materials to said products. I find that far more rewarding.

 

Cheers!

post #12852 of 16970

I'm only saying you are a beginner at what you are trying (fruitlessly) to ridicule, namely, that cables can produce different sonic results when integrated into real-world home and portable audio systems.  Those of us who are experienced have "experiment" to add to your "theory" that they "shouldn't" sound different. I made no assumption about you being a beginner; I deduced it from your dozen statements that show you to be unaware of a huge body of knowledge that was well trodden by thousands before you.

 

e.g., Can you tell me all, or any, of the following?  All of these pertain to whether you can decide in principal (theoretically) if cables make sonic differences or not: 

  • who wrote a paper, any paper, in a peer reviewed journal on "dielectric absorption?"
  • Can you tell me how that affects capacitor—and cable—performance, and
  • how manufacturers work around this?
  • Have you ever heard the before/after experiment?
  • Can you write the equation?  
  • Can you tell me what a grain boundary is, in terms of its effect on conduction and aging?
  • Do you know what triboelectric effect is?  
  • Piezoelectric effect?
  • Skin effect?
  • Shielding of audio cables systems, especially given most equipment is unbalanced and thus differentially susceptible to noise?  
  • How RF in such a shield could affect upstream output amplifiers with local or global feedback?
  • In your field of expertise, which I suspect includes analog video systems, are cables operating in impedance-matched mode, or not matched?  
  • Is Audio matched or not matched? 
  • Why are these different?  Why does audio use what it uses? 

 

If not, then it seems predictable that you would stick to lumped parameter models of V, I, R. 

 

 

PS: please don't think you can sign up here 6 days ago and walk in knowing more about every aspect than this huge user base.  

 

And it is likely to lose you allies to barge in and claim: 

  • "placebo for "Audiophiles" and nothing more"
  • "crazy"
  • "made many a snake oil salesman rich"
  • "sucker"'

 

As for my quote, "(in the kindest sense) 'ignorant'" simply meant "Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular."  I stand by that.  

 

When we talk about broadcast expertise, I'll be all ears and defer willingly to you. I appreciate your experience. Yet one can be wrong about something specific... happens to me all the time!  

 

Mine is: degree in Physics, major in Acoustics, Degree in General Engineering, major in management; 12 years NASA Acoustical physicist, 10 years medical device acoustics, reviewing (including for Stereophile), consulting for audio dealers in acoustics and product lines, consulting for manufacturers and consumers in home audio, development of touch interfaces for smart devices, and too much time to spare now that I'm on disability.... 


Edited by Stoney - 7/6/13 at 6:30pm
post #12853 of 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by longbowbbs View Post

Watching the Video of Axel, the head Sennheiser at engineer, listen to a pair of HD800's with Toxic Cables at the London meet was really interesting. Even he was convinced...


Do you have a link to that video Eric? I would love to see! biggrin.gif

post #12854 of 16970
Quote:
Originally Posted by scolaiw View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by longbowbbs View Post

Watching the Video of Axel, the head Sennheiser at engineer, listen to a pair of HD800's with Toxic Cables at the London meet was really interesting. Even he was convinced...


Do you have a link to that video Eric? I would love to see! biggrin.gif

I just left a PM for GSARider. He organized the London meet and I think he was the one who filmed it. Fun to see Axel sitting next to Frank listening to a pair of HD800's with Toxic cables...biggrin.gif

post #12855 of 16970
Felti m sort of cursed...icould hear difference in all my cheap stockcables...to low endcables ..to midficables..to usbcables..to earpads..to 1/8to1/4adaptors...
And i tote eryoneelse would hear the diff too...but i wasmistaken....
Some honestly cant... either vblessed..or hv equipts tat would negate such variations...or jus earwax.

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