Holy Batman! This PINT kicks freakin' butt!!! - Page 7

only because certain unofficial policies have maybe been relaxed, or even gotten rid of. the proof is in the pudding, though this is a good start. hey, while you're posting in this thread, let me get your advice on something, MarkL. i recently got Scott Walker's The Drift, which i think is awesome. what albums of his should i get next? feel free to PM me, if you don't want to crap this thread even more than i just did

You are talking in absolutes! To say that everyone is afraid, is a false statement. "Everyone" is a rather large category.

You bought an amp, payed a certain amount of money for it, felt it wasn't your "cup of tea" and exercised your right for a refund. That's all there is to it. No one is shutting you down or banning you for liking one product over another. It seems like there is another underlying reason for your endless discussion about your dislike for a product. There is no dark cloud. If a couple of things happened during moderation that created a feeling of paranoia, it might be because not eveyone gets to see the whole picture. As Pink Floyd (the band, not the member) stated, "people can be divided into three types of animals...dogs, pigs and sheep". If some things happened to individuals that they felt were done unjustly, and then make a mission out of it to turn all of the "sheep" into believing that it is a conspiracy, it hasn't anything to do with audio. It is personal and when it gets nasty it falls into violating a TOU which is made to protect everyone on the forum:

Be polite. We encourage debating -- even heated debating -- in the forums, but avoid defamatory statements, personal attacks, racial slurs, name-calling, and cursing at others in the forums.
defamatory: see defame below.

defame: 1. disgrace; 2. to harm the reputation of by libel or slander.

libel: a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt.

slander: the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation.

That is warnable and bannable material.

It is not about a bunch of moderators getting together every night to try to make people's life miserable. The people who preach this conspiracy day in and day out, are truly the "black cloud". This is an audio site. It's not personal...it's people sharing ideas and opinions about audio in a mature fashion. There is a small population of people who want to make this a popularity contest about who's cool and who isn't. What does that have to do with headphones, amp and associated components?

Anyone that truly feels that this forum is so tainted and unjust does not have to be a member. There are plenty of audio forums. It seems that the people who stay just to complain and accuse, do it because that is what gives them joy...not the love of what music does for us.

It seems unnecessary, but I can't help but point out that none of this has transpired.

I'm not sure why that would be. We have LOTS of folks who don't prefer one product or another, and yet they manage to convey that without using words like "rip-off", which seem to convey a misplaced hostility and are unnecessary. Some of the commentary about the moderators seems similarly unkind.

Truth is one of those things that's a little hard to get your arms around. What is the objective truth in this thread? About the only thing I can see is that an amp by one manufacturer costs significantly more than another amp designed as a project and built by a DIY builder. Whether one sounds better than the other is the truth only so long as it's qualified by the words "in my opinion". Unless what you mean to say is that you are telling the truth, and those who disagree are liars...and we all know better than that, now don't we??

I offer a personal example: there are quite a few folks here who think that the Sony SA5000 are the best headphones around. I hated them...literally couldn't wait to take them off of my head. I would literally rather listen to iPod earbuds than those cans...but is my opinion "the truth", or those who feel otherwise?

I will admit that sometimes folks let their opinions about and liking for one manufacturer or another run a bit wild. A lot of folks on this board know Ray well, and like him personally. It's difficult for those folks to sit idly while someone infers that he's ripping people off. But Ray is hardly the only manufcaturer on this board who has people who flock to his defense when they perceive (rightly or wrongly) that he's being attacked. I can certainly think of another manufacturer (whose fans are well represented in this thread) who inspires the same kind of loyalty. Frankly, I think that we can do without this response most of the time. If some folks are "afraid" to voice their opinion about any number of things, it's probably because of this.

Just because one person can build a DIY amp that they like better than a manufacturers amp costing 4 times as much doesn't mean that those of us who buy those amps are liars or fools or anything of the sort. Personally, I prefer to spend the extra $$ on gear from established manufacturers...and frankly I have a soft spot in my heart for those good folks who support this site (I sure hope that doesn't constitue a conspiracy in the eyes of some...it shouldn't). Other folks find DIY gear to be a great value, and don't see the benefits gained from buying a "name brand". Doesn't make either of us wrong.

In the end, I think what many of the folks in this thread are saying (and this is not a message to the OP only) is tone down the attitude a bit. That's all. We'll all get along better. I've seen plenty of other audio websites where members make slandering one manufacturer or another blood sport. I don't want to see that happen here.

well, technical merit of amps are more objective than say, headphones

And yet is still subject to personal preference. For instance, the technical merit of a Qualia over a KSC-35 is unquestioned. But honestly, I'd enjoy an entire evening with those Koss clips over one with the Qualia. It's just what I like hearing. Oh, and the technical merit of the Orpheus is greater than the KSC-35. And I'd kick the koss clip to the curb in a hearbeat for that can

mmmhmm, that's still preference because their signature/fit is totally different. Whereas with amps, the variance is often less, especially amongst portable amps in terms of subjectivity. There really isn't much about an amp in which you would prefer one over the other. Mostly detail, soundstage, clarity, power. Maybe a few others. Some might be warmer than others, brighter, colder, but you don't have grado/sennheiser differences. Generally speaking.

i preferred a [cough]clone[/cough] made for me to use with my rs-1 over a custom deluxe pocket reference with all the bells and whistles. it was certainly less technically-sophisticated, but it sure sounded great with the rs-1. no matter how you slice it, it comes down to personal preference...we can all agree that X amp is technically superior to Y amp...but i doubt we'll all agree on which we prefer.

Some people on this forum call Bose products (especially a particular headphone) absolute crap, which basically means a 'rip off', regarding their high price (which is always duly noted). I don't see anyone complaining about these kind of statements. Why not? Cause it's a huge manufacturer, and they are used to get criticism. Small companies on the other hand...

Calling a product a 'rip off' is fair in my opinion. Ray Samuels is very kind to get to get the package posted ASAP, even with money from his own. But that's what a manufacturer is supposed to do, especially when he's trying to start up a big business, and it wants to receive a name among, in this case, Head-Fi'ers.

You need to see it from a perspective. $350 is big money, especially for such a tiny little amp, that can definately be outfloored by amps at the same pricerate in terms of pure powerhandling (=better SQ). And a PINT seems to give a much better value for the money, and if you know that these little amps are virtually all the same (opamp + buffer put in small cases), someone can do the math very quickly. I can't even hear a difference between my Marantz speaker amp and my DIY amp, aside the powerhandling. SQ it's just the same. And from this point of view, yes, it's possible to state that a little amp, 'worth' $350, is a rip off. Being kind to the consumer, as manufacturer, is a basic fact, and must not be part off the product itself.

It's your own decision, as manufacturer, to make amps as a living, but don't expect from anyone to gain total respect (eg your products not being called a 'rip off'). A too high price is a fair argument to call a product/service a 'rip off', if you can get better for (much) less money. Respect has nothing to do with this. It may well be that it's disrespectfull to indirectly attack the manufacturer, but hey, that's part of your own life philosofy.

But "better" for you, is not necessarily "better" for me or anyone else. That is the problem.

ps: Guys, this thread was created to speak about the PINT and it's qualities, characteristics, and so on. Not about the hornet. May I humbly ask that we go back to the original topic?

First things first. I'm glad you are happy. The PINT is a nice amp, and if anyone could execute it properly, it would be Marshall. I would think it possible to express your favor for this amp without declaring that another amp is a 'rip-off'. Sure, it's your opinion, and you may share it if you like, but it casts you in a bad light. Being able to state your preferences and opinion without crapping on someone else takes a little more effort, I guess. Your opinions would bear more value to the membership if they were formulated in a more constructive manner.

Indeed. It is entirely possible that one might enjoy the propeties of the headphone jack on their iPod more than any given amp, in their rig, via their ears. Superb, if that is the case. However, it only illustrates your preference. Objectivity goes a long way towards a thoughtful exchange of information.

As for this static about 'moderator protection' and the like, it's insulting. I do not even own any of Ray's products, although I have auditioned many of them. They are nice, but do not suit my taste. That is enough for me- I can buy them, own them, sell them, love them, or hate them. But I would not call them a rip-off, even at twice the price. If someone enjoys the product, then it is a success. And many folks do. For those who do not, there are many other choices, including the PINT. Which is not without it's own issues, as we all know. Does the fact that there were stability issues with this amp make it a rip-off? No, but it makes it difficult to support. I applaud Tangent for taking the high road and pulling the plug on the PINT. It must have been difficult, but I support his decision.

Anyone who thinks that the moderating staff here is heavy-handed likely feels that way because we try to keep this place reasonably constructive and enjoyable;short-sighted slams and other disparaging comments are discouraged. This is known up front, and if you don't like it, then leave. It's a big internet, there is room for everyone somewhere.

Right. It would be sufficient to state that you owned the Hornet, and now have the PINT, and feel that the PINT does the job better. Much better, if you like. You could say that you think that the PINT represents a greater value. It illustrates the same point, yet without painting the opposing party as being a scam artist. This is a democracy, and people may charge whatever they wish. If Marshall sold the PINT for more, would it cease to be a good amp? If Ray sold the Hornet for less, would it be a better amp? No, but the perceived value may shift with the price. The sonic qualities of the amp remain the same for each, regardless of price charged. So the discussion then becomes about business practice, rather than amplifier capabilities. Price is a consideration, but it ought to be expresses as a relative consideration.

We ought to be reviewing/remarking on any given amp based on it's own properties, and stating preferences relative to competing products. Otherwise, this forum would be a long list of "this amp sucks", this amps is crappy, but better than that amp', or 'this amp is pretty good, but it's still crappy, less crappy than another amp'... and people would be trying to figure out which amp was 'the least crappy'. That would really be nice, wouldn't it?

I really LOVE my little PINT amp!

It is very fast, has snap!, punch, and impact.
It has great range . . . the bass is deep and strong, I can hear an hugh increase in bass with my ER6 compared to the other portables I have tried. The first time I tried them together felt like they were gonna vibrate their way out of my ears!
The mids are detailed and the highs clear and crisp.
The amp has a huge, very open sound.
Overall very impressive, from the instant I first turned it on.
It even makes my 30 year old K240 go from sounding 'blah' . . . to sounding like something special.
An amazing value!

(this is the PINT thread, correct?)

Life is short. Drink rum.

Aside from my first post offering a sincere, heart-felt congrats to volcomjerk for his enthusiasm for his PINT, and a couple of posts asking info about a tiny Alien DAC and solid-looking PINT/DAC stack by misterx -- this is my only comment post.

As earlier, I have no comment about anyone else's statements here -- only my continued "Congrats" to volcomjerk for finding the amp that really excites him, which as I, and many others, have stated is the goal of our hobby.

You're comment, however, that this post was created to speak about the PINT is only partly correct. Unfortunately, it was the OP, volcomjerk, who in his first post included a lengthy discussion about the Hornet which certainly effected/affected the Hornet-related posts that followed the earlier "Congrats" posts.

He would have had a happier thread without it, but he felt he needed to express that -- and so be it.

One can do many things in this life, as long as one is clear about what the consequences may be, and takes responsibility for one's actions.

Second'd! (though bourbon in my case....same difference )

Rip-off means someone deceivingly marked the price to make outrageous profits from something. I believe Mr. Ray Samuel had put a great amount of effort in the design of the Hornet amp, and the price honestly reflects the manufacturing cost and gives him a reasonable profit. That's not what I would call a rip-off.