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Holy Batman! This PINT kicks freakin' butt!!! - Page 5

post #61 of 230
9/21/06 at 2:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ichiro
For those interested in the pint/alien dac combo I had a special combo made by misterx. I posted pics in another thread but here they are again. It's a desktop pint powered by a tread in mini^3 configuration with two 8397 opamps. The dac is a standard alien dac with external power instead of usb power. The combo is quite amazing and as kugino said for about a third the cost of the microstack it holds its own (yes, I've owned the microstack with a 2006 desktop module in the amp).
ichiro --

The mixterx stack looks great and I expect sounds great, so may I ask why you sold it?
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post #62 of 230
9/21/06 at 5:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacd lover
Even if the PINT cost the same as a hornet the PINT sounds much better to these ears. At 1.5x the cost that I paid, thats less than $175. If this amp sold for $229-249 the cost to performance is still way beyond the other commercial portables we read about. Hopefully someone will produce this amp commercially.
Even with custom engraved front panels, marketing costs, stock invesment, and other related issues when building something commercially, the pint could be made available at 200$-220$ with a margin profit for head-fi and for the builder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volcomjerk
Hell I'd pay $350 for this amp obviously. Lets just say hypothetically speaking the Hornet sounded like a Pint I'd probably would have kept it but you know what I don't think the Pint would ever go commercial people would just buy it from DIY builders for cheaper.
The thing is , boards are not sold anymore so even those DIYers who have bought a good stock will eventually stop building these. For those who don't know why this design has been pulled by Tangent, the mais reason was the rate of failure people were having. But many of those who failed were newbies with little or no experience in DIY. The Pint is a relatively difficult project.

So if someone goes and makes boards, a nice case, better batery life, and some good advertisement, there would definitely be a market for this.

Maybe...
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post #63 of 230
9/21/06 at 5:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MASantos
Even with custom engraved front panels, marketing costs, stock invesment, and other related issues when building something commercially, the pint could be made available at 200$-220$ with a margin profit for head-fi and for the builder.
There is no guarentee that enough will sell. How much is your time worth per hour? How many workers? How will you schedule your time for packing and shipping? What about returns and refunds? IMO the reason a lot of the big manufacturers don't touch headphone amplifiers is the return investment is dodgy at best.

My mom sells chemicals in bulk to shops and it takes a lot of work to turn a profit per hour of work. These small amp builders are a bargain for what they need to do on what I assume is a 1 or 2 people operation. I think that is what happened to drew/shellbrook. Overwhelming workload compared to the wages. In the end, trying to make a living selling 1 or 2 lines of headphone amps or any product will not support you.
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post #64 of 230
9/21/06 at 6:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEATTEFLON
There is no guarentee that enough will sell. How much is your time worth per hour? How many workers? How will you schedule your time for packing and shipping? What about returns and refunds? IMO the reason a lot of the big manufacturers don't touch headphone amplifiers is the return investment is dodgy at best.

My mom sells chemicals in bulk to shops and it takes a lot of work to turn a profit per hour of work. These small amp builders are a bargain for what they need to do on what I assume is a 1 or 2 people operation. I think that is what happened to drew/shellbrook. Overwhelming workload compared to the wages. In the end, trying to make a living selling 1 or 2 lines of headphone amps or any product will not support you.
I don't say that one could make a living of this. What I mean is if a DIYer invests in this kind of operation, as Rockhopper, JMT, and in the past other, it can certainly be a nice hobby/part time job as long as one doesn't exceed his capacities.
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post #65 of 230
9/21/06 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahn
hey now! that Blackdiamond IC looks like the one I'm waiting on! nice!
The one pictured is actually an extra blackdiamond that I got in a package deal with my imod ipod. You can tell from the picture that the previous owner got good use out of it. Currently, I'm using a custom built spc mini-mini which sounds great as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanee
ichiro --

The mixterx stack looks great and I expect sounds great, so may I ask why you sold it?
It does sound great! I actually didn't sell the stack. I bought a portable pint because the desktop pint sounded so good. I decided to sell the portable without any good reason other than my short attention span. I've tried a lot of the portable amps out there (cmoy, buffered cmoy, portable pimeta, portaphile v2, ae-1, hornet, pint, supermacro 3 v6, go-vibe v3 and v5, supermini 3, micro amp with 2006 desktop module, and pocket reference II) each one has had its strengths and yet, I always grow tired of them after a few months. Currently, I'm enjoying the go-vibe v5 and am having a hard time parting with the supermini III because of the nice sound combined with the incredibly small size. To my ears the go-vibe has a wider sound stage with a slight recession in the mids compared to my portable pint (the one utarch00 has). The pint is a great amp and holds its own with all of the amps I've had a chance to play with. Honestly, I don't think it can compete head to head with some of the big boys like the pr II or desktop amps like the gilmore lite or m^3 however, for the price you pay the sound is excellent.
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post #66 of 230
9/21/06 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEATTEFLON
There is no guarentee that enough will sell. How much is your time worth per hour? How many workers? How will you schedule your time for packing and shipping? What about returns and refunds? IMO the reason a lot of the big manufacturers don't touch headphone amplifiers is the return investment is dodgy at best.

My mom sells chemicals in bulk to shops and it takes a lot of work to turn a profit per hour of work. These small amp builders are a bargain for what they need to do on what I assume is a 1 or 2 people operation. I think that is what happened to drew/shellbrook. Overwhelming workload compared to the wages. In the end, trying to make a living selling 1 or 2 lines of headphone amps or any product will not support you.
The whole reason this thread exists is because MisterX did build PINT's and did make a profit at it.

There is a volume threshold that undoubtedly becomes too much to handle by one individual, but not nearly enough to justify a second. As extra spending money or a supplemental income, DIY headphone amps is probably a good vocation. Once volume exceeds the productive capability of a single individual, however, then the volume/profit needed to hire another individual becomes almost insurmountable.

No doubt, Tangent and Amb discovered this long ago. Selling a designed board with documention has a superior profit leverage: there is only one initial labor cost of any significance, one supply source, and a huge volume advantage. Once the initial cost is overcome, everything else is almost pure profit. Most importantly, the numbers and distribution are not limited, since there is no extra "labor investment" hurdle on the horizon. That provides an ample supply of raw material for the DIY consumer, and maximizes exposure for the hobby (thank goodness).

As MASantos points out, though, there is ample opportunity for generating a small income from producing DIY amps - certainly enough to support your hobby.
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post #67 of 230
9/21/06 at 8:35am
Ditto. I have just bought a new soldering station, Multimeter and other DIY tools with the money I made from building PINT's. It is a great way to support your own projects.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb
The whole reason this thread exists is because MisterX did build PINT's and did make a profit at it.

There is a volume threshold that undoubtedly becomes too much to handle by one individual, but not nearly enough to justify a second. As extra spending money or a supplemental income, DIY headphone amps is probably a good vocation. Once volume exceeds the productive capability of a single individual, however, then the volume/profit needed to hire another individual becomes almost insurmountable.

No doubt, Tangent and Amb discovered this long ago. Selling a designed board with documention has a superior profit leverage: there is only one initial labor cost of any significance, one supply source, and a huge volume advantage. Once the initial cost is overcome, everything else is almost pure profit. Most importantly, the numbers and distribution are not limited, since there is no extra "labor investment" hurdle on the horizon. That provides an ample supply of raw material for the DIY consumer, and maximizes exposure for the hobby (thank goodness).

As MASantos points out, though, there is ample opportunity for generating a small income from producing DIY amps - certainly enough to support your hobby.
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post #68 of 230
9/21/06 at 12:54pm
volcomjerk - Glad to hear you found an amp that is giving you the "wow" factor. That's really what this place is about man, not loyalty to any handful of manufactures but checking out the different flavors and finding the one you like best. Congrats, now enjoy the music!
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post #69 of 230
9/21/06 at 1:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeride74
volcomjerk - Glad to hear you found an amp that is giving you the "wow" factor. That's really what this place is about man, not loyalty to any handful of manufactures but checking out the different flavors and finding the one you like best. Congrats, now enjoy the music!
Thanks! I'm glad I didn't have to spend much to find it too. For now this will do and then it's on to bigger things when I move into my own place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filburt
Welcome to my world. I abstain from posting a variety of comments here because a significant portion of what I'd normally give to someone as advice is considered inappropriate to post here, particularly over certain manufacters' devices. I don't particularly enjoy this nor do I feel it benefits consumers to have a policy like this, but it seems to be something I and others have to live with if we want to post here. I'm not even talking about exotic information here; This sort of stuff is discussed on other boards and some of it can be gleaned from the pictures posted on the net, even on some manufacters' sites.
Everyone needs to know the truth and I'm sure everyone who is looking for headphone advice stumbles across this site without knowing any better and goes ahead and buys the most expensive toy without actually knowing what they are buying. I know I did this I bought some pretty expensive things and I know I could have made better choices but I guess it comes from experience at being on head-fi that things aren't what they seem to be.

Any person can come on the head-fi forums and think hey this place is pretty open to discussion about anything but the fact that there are so many people here afraid to say what they think about something is not a true discussion forum to me.

I'll bring up an example... I had a Bithead vs. Hornet thread earlier and I bought the Hornet. I gave the Hornet a listen for a few days and that thing didn't make any difference to me between the source and the amp. (I know all you Hornet readers are about to click that QUOTE and try to tell me otherwise but please refrain because I know some people like their Hornets). I couldn't believe how much I paid for it and so I think to myself, maybe I should post my impressions on the forums and see if it's just my ears. So... I do and people are telling me I'm not giving it enough time... "350+ Hours before you hear it transform into something glorious!" or "You're wrong! The Hornet IS THE BEST!" Sorry, that's not how I work and I know I don't have to burn in something for me to know I'm going to like it. Also telling me that my ears are not hearing things correctly is not the appropriate response in my book.

So from there I'm just like screw it I'm tired of listening to what everyone THINKS of the Hornet and I'm going to try out something less expensive and see how it sounds from there. Only then would I truely know how the Hornet's value compares. So I get my Pint (lucky me) and I'm completely blown away by the sound at the price I paid because I'm being led to believe that because so many people own a Hornet and so many people talk about it that it's absolutely the best portable amp you can get. Sorry, but my ears tell me that this PINT is CLEARLY superior to what I heard on the Hornet.

So I'll summarize what I just said but maybe with some reality check in it?

In summary to ME... the Hornet is a complete rip off for $350+ (no shipping included). If that's what is afraid of being said then that's sad. People need to know that there's potential for such an expensive item to sound nothing like what they paid for but hey like I said, that's just my opinion only because I value my hard earned money and find it hard to believe that I almost kept the Hornet simply because people here think it's the end of the world when someone thinks otherwise of their equipment. If this truely is a discussion forum then there should definitely be posts of negative/positive reviews of equipment because it's the right of the consumer to know what's bought.
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post #70 of 230
9/21/06 at 4:19pm
Volcomjerk.....I'm standing and applauding!! Here, here!! Well said. This whole headphone hobby is really all subjective. Different stroke for different folks. I think it was lan who put it best when he said to trust your own ears. You've done that and are a happier, more financially healthy fella as a result. Good going, man!
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post #71 of 230
9/21/06 at 4:28pm
ayep, go with what you like, ditch what you don't! my own portable amp history goes all over the place from cheap to pricey to complex to simple to ugly to sexy etc etc etc - i'm ALMOST there, but not quite, so it's just a tweaking stage right now to get a nice balance of elements that work on the go. man, if i tried to get an amp that worked as well in the home as it does on the go, i think i'd be going crazy! and some amps sounded gorgeous at home but were cowed by the daily sounds of my commute.

you have to go with what you like and what you need and what you can afford. and if the dust settles and it's a PINT, or if the dust settles and it's an electrostatic energizer driven by a car battery, so be it! as long as at the end of the day, you're a happy Head-fier!
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post #72 of 230
9/21/06 at 5:38pm
volcomjerk - We all start in different places. I started here with DT770-250 straight out of a crapy Sony portable discman I picked up a Total Airhead and it made a small difference but I expected more for the money. I returned it and picked up a SR-71 (very highly regarded around here) but it was too polite for me... great for classical and Jazz but left something to be desired for rock and metal. I returned that and bought a Headroom Supreme (probably somewhere between the desktop amp and Micro) and loved it! I loved it so much I used it as a transportable and home amp.

So I started small and worked my way up, some flavors were not for me and some were. I've always preferred doing business with manufactures that have a return policy because this pursuit is such a guessing game. I have owned the HR Total Airhead, Supreme, Micro, RSA SR-71, Hornet, Xin SM3, SMv6, PRII. The only one of these amps I noticed a "real" change with burnin was the Hornet. This may be because the others burned in while I listened and with the Hornet I listened to it for about 5 minutes out of the box and then again at 300 hours and was just floored.

If you go to the national meet we should totally do some side by side a/b with my Hornet your PINT and a burned in "M". I would really like to hear all three. I've heard great things about the PINT and people seem to be loving the "M" Hornet. Now if I can just get my Slam in a portable
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post #73 of 230
9/21/06 at 6:28pm
Thread Starter 
wakeride74 -bWell one day I'll go to a meet and hear a 300+ burned Hornet. I'm not doubting other believers but I'm saying for my ears and wallet at at only a couple hours I wasn't happy at all. I could think of a lot of things to buy for $350 and I think the PINT is the best bang for the buck.

If Ray was going to allow me to use the Hornet for 300+ hours I would have happily gave it a chance but most of the time for me I just need to be impressed right out of the box and it would have been a much bigger gamble for me to see if I would have even liked it with 300+ hours. Then I'd have to deal with selling it for less than I got it for. At least with the PINT I knew I could sell it for near what I bought it for.

But lets just say I did like the Hornet after 300+ hours and the PINT was just as good to me. I mean seriously it's a no brainer to get the PINT. The only thing for me the Hornet had going for it was the design. I mean the case is beautiful and really well crafted knobs and a nicely colored case but that comes last for me.
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post #74 of 230
9/21/06 at 7:24pm

I really tried....

Quote:
Originally Posted by volcomjerk
In summary to ME... the Hornet is a complete rip off for $350+ (no shipping included). If that's what is afraid of being said then that's sad. People need to know that there's potential for such an expensive item to sound nothing like what they paid for but hey like I said, that's just my opinion only because I value my hard earned money and find it hard to believe that I almost kept the Hornet simply because people here think it's the end of the world when someone thinks otherwise of their equipment. If this truly is a discussion forum then there should definitely be posts of negative/positive reviews of equipment because it's the right of the consumer to know what's bought.
Volcomjerk...
I am very glad that you have found the amp that makes you happy, I feel your excitement & what you are going through in expressing your findings.
But I think you should also remember the utmost respect & attention you got from our side all the way to the very last transaction of full refund.
There is nothing wrong with liking something that ticks with you & gives you the WOW factor, while others don't, that is natural & you have all the right for that.
But with a statement, like above, your posts are taking a different turn my friend. I did not, will not & never have, as you have said, tried to rip you off or any one else, that is a very strong statement coming from you. You are becoming very angry at me when I truly went out of my way to send your Hornet via Fed-Ex 2 days delivery & paid the extra dollars from my pocket to make you happy.
So it did not make you happy, nothing is wrong with that & it is your right to return it & get full refund no question asked. Was i short of that?
There are many headfiers who return headphones, inter connectors, amps cd players, they get their money back & it is over, they go their way to find something else that makes them happy, BUT they don't turn around & say buying this or that from Mr. Y or Z is a rip of.
How do you know buying the Hornet is a rip off?
Please give the respect to those who respect you, I did my share. Bashing manufacturer's products is not a wise thing to do when you deal with them, & you will be dealing with many more, as this is not your last purchase in this hobby of ours.
If moderators think that this post of mine is offensive in any way toward Mr. volcomjerk, please remove it at your discretion.
Thanks.
Ray Samuels
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post #75 of 230
9/21/06 at 7:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Samuels
Volcomjerk...
I am very glad that you have found the amp that makes you happy, I feel your exitment & what you are going through in expressing your findings.
But I think you should also remember the utmost respect & attension you got from our side all the way to the very last transaction of full refund.
There is nothing wrong with liking something that ticks with you & gives you the WOW factor, while others don't, that is natural & you have all the right for that.
But with a statment, like above, your posts are taking a different turn my friend. I did not, will not & never have, as you have said, tried to rip you off or any one else, that is a very strong statement coming from you. You are becoming very angry at me when I truely went out of my way to send your Hornet via Fed-Ex 2 days delivery & paid the extra dollars from my pocket to make you happy.
So it did not make you happy, nothing is wrong with that & it is your right to return it & get full refund no question asked. Was i short of that?
There are many headfiers who return headphones, inter connectors, amps cd players, they get their money back & it is over, they go their way to find something else that makes them happy, BUT they don't turn around & say buying this or that from Mr. Y or Z is a rip of.
How do you know buying the Hornet is a rip off?
Please give the respect to those who respect you, I did my share. Bashing manufacturer's products is not a wise thing to do when you deal with them, & you will be dealing with many more, as this is not your last purchase in this hobby of ours.
If moderators think that this post of mine is offensive in any way toward Mr. volcomjerk, please remove it at your discration.
Thanks.
Ray Samuels
Ray you're a good guy, you make a nice product however to me like I said it's a rip off compared to the PINT. I'm in no way shape or form giving negative feedback about your product without comparing other products it's a fair market. Whether or not this is hard to hear or hard to believe that 1 PERSON actually doesn't like your Hornet then welcome to reality. Manufacturers have to deal with the fact that they aren't always going to get positive reviews from their customers. If head-fi really is about educating then people have a right to know that they potentially might not be happy about how much they spent for a Hornet.

I'm also not posting negative comments about your product without doing my homework. I've pointed out positive and negative things about your product and if it's hard to hear that I'd pick a PINT over the Hornet I heard anyday then I'm sorry. If you are so confident that people will like the product after 300+ hours I think I should have had the luxury to listen to it for that long but I guess I'll have to turn to others who have a 300 hour Hornet. If you are that confident the Hornet is that much better what do you have to worry about 1 guy posting negative feedback about it. After all you do have an army of supporters why feel threatened when 1 person has something negative to say?

The moderators can remove whatever they like or ban me or shut this thread down to protect your business and if that's whats done then so be it. After all why trust most of what's been said here when everyone is afraid to even say the truth or negative remarks.
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