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Blind Cable Taste Test RESULTS! - Page 13

post #181 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
Are others here seriously going to suggest that just because a cable costs $100.00+ does not mean it was meant to sound better than the one that is $3.00?
The car industry isn't selling cars per se... It's selling objects that make people feel better about themselves. High end cables are like that too... They help obsessive/compulsive people stop worrying about tiny insignificant factors that might be affecting the quality of their sound system. If a salesman can convince someone that a little piece of wire will make them satisfied with themselves, perhaps it's worth it.

See ya
Steve
post #182 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot
The car industry isn't selling cars per se... It's selling objects that make people feel better about themselves. High end cables are like that too... They help obsessive/compulsive people stop worrying about tiny insignificant factors that might be affecting the quality of their sound system. If a salesman can convince someone that a little piece of wire will make them satisfied with themselves, perhaps it's worth it.

See ya
Steve
Well now Steve, this is a pretty good point. But if what you're saying is true, then we've all just relegated ourselves to ignorant car purchasers who buy a vehicle based on how many cup holders it has.

Quite frankly, I'd like to think I'm a little more progressive than this and can actually make sound logical decisions. My guess is the most of you would be the same.
post #183 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
Okay, well I suppose we better get this off the table right now. Are others here seriously going to suggest that just because a cable costs $100.00+ does not mean it was meant to sound better than the one that is $3.00? Excuse me for making the assumption that when somebody says "Here's a cable to connect your stereo that costs $500.00 and here's one that costs $3.00" I'm going to assume the $500 cable is supposedly of higher build and construction. Am I wrong here?
If you are trying to construct a scientific or even quasi-scientific test to determine which cable people prefer, then yes, I think that it is wrong to assume that one cable is different from the other. There are others who have participated in this thread who are obviously far more experienced than I in designing experiments, and perhaps they can comment further, but it seems to me that before you can validly test to determine what the differences between the cables are, then it is absolutely necessary to determine first that a difference exists.

To make it clear: I am not asserting that the $100+ cable is equal to the $3 cable. What I am saying is that if you are designing an experiment, you cannot assume that differences exist.
post #184 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
Excuse me for making the assumption that when somebody says "Here's a cable to connect your stereo that costs $500.00 and here's one that costs $3.00" I'm going to assume the $500 cable is supposedly of higher build and construction. Am I wrong here?
Yes, you are wrong.

I had a freind who knew cable manufacturers in Taiwan. He was told stories of many hi-end cable companies repackaging Asian cables and raise the price 20 fold.

Another friend opened up some hi-end cables only to see cheap material/bad construction. In one case, the cable company did make their cables in North America, using HOME DEPOT WIRES, and sell them for hundreds or thoudands of dollars. I just did a Google search on this brand of cables, and found so many glaring comments--hail to the Home Depot wires. Audiphiles and audio reviewer must be the funniest people on earth. Don't laugh too quickly, because this brand of cable is very popular on head-fi due to some super heavy-weight head-fiers' recommendations.

If someone decides to write a book to investigate all the shady business practices of the hi-end cable industry, the result would be hilarious. Fortunately, these cables are so expensive that no one can afford to open enough of them to write a book. You don't want to know the truth, and you can't handle the truth.

Let's face it, without the super-profitable cable industry, hi-end would collapse. Cable is the money maker in hi-end retail and cable companies are major advertisers in magazines. Unless you want hi-end to vanish, we can't declare a war against dishonest cable companies. People paying for expensive cables are in fact generously donating to the entire industry, making the audio hobby sustainable for the rest of us. We should applaud their efforts and encourage them to try even more exotic products.

Don't label me a cable nay-sayer just because I am sarcastic. I am not trying to tell jokes but just to describe the reality. The reality is often harder to accept than fiction. Of course wires can make a difference. Otherwise why would many top studios use made-in-Japan Mogami wires instead of Home Depot wires? Points of contact, like crimped joints, solder points and those between connectors, can really make significant differences. Why do you think audio professionals like nickel-plated connectors instead of gold? Gold coating is so thin that it wears off easily.

Cable designs are complicated and involve quite a few compromises. Reading Pro-co's white papers is a good place to start. Audio professional have looked into the matter very closely and came up with affordable and reasonably good solutions. The solutions are so reasonable and affordable that almost the entire industry has settled on similar products--that's why you don't see audio professionals fuzzing over cables. I believe it is possible to make better cables than what Mogami and Pro-Co has to offer, but it will be commercially expensive (DIY is a great alternative). But how do you verify your expensive cable is better made? If you assume it is uber-expensive, so it must be very well made, then I must thank you for your kind and unconditional support of my favorite hobby.
post #185 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
Well now Steve, this is a pretty good point. But if what you're saying is true, then we've all just relegated ourselves to ignorant car purchasers who buy a vehicle based on how many cup holders it has.
"New car smell" has no practical purpose, but I doubt if anyone would buy a car if it didn't have it. Style is important for those to whom style is important. It's pretty obvious that good sound quality isn't the only objective of a lot of the people on this forum. To some, it isn't even the primary objective.

See ya
Steve
post #186 of 578
I've worked with dozens of recording studios, mixing stages and video edit suites over the years, and I've spoken with a lot of engineers. Every single one I spoke with laughed at the concept of "high end cables". Most studios make their own cables, not for quality reasons, but because the cost of buying a spindle and a case of connectors is much less than buying ready made cables.

The guys who set up recording studios are electrical engineers and technical types. They know how a cable works. No amount of hoodoo will fool them.

See ya
Steve
post #187 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot
I've worked with dozens of recording studios, mixing stages and video edit suites over the years, and I've spoken with a lot of engineers. Every single one I spoke with laughed at the concept of "high end cables". Most studios make their own cables, not for quality reasons, but because the cost of buying a spindle and a case of connectors is much less than buying ready made cables.

The guys who set up recording studios are electrical engineers and technical types. They know how a cable works. No amount of hoodoo will fool them.

See ya
Steve
Yes; long ago, while I was starting in high end sales, high-end cable was just coming into being. The cables were barely available premade - 1m only. For almost everything else, including speaker wires, we bought by the roll spindle and terminated in house.

Back then there was nothing to hide, when the dealer is terminating for you. Heck, the MIT's IC's I used to use in my own system I did indeed terminate myself, using the proper solder pot, terminations and parts. I knew that MIT made nice cables for I could see the unusual design and quality construction myself (larger, individually insulated wires cross-wound within very fine gauge wires, and the good insulation (that was a bear to deal with properly).

Now? Who know was Houdini crap they are pulling off. And there is very little chance that a 1m pair of cables could possibly have $3000 worth of materials or man-hours construction time in them.

It's all become smoke and mirrors.
post #188 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
Quite frankly, I'd like to think I'm a little more progressive than this and can actually make sound logical decisions.
You can and do, and most others do too. Certain people continually spout off about what everybody else's motivations are for doing certain things, what is or is not best for others, why all sorts of purchasing decisions made by the average consumer, and audiophiles in general reflect some sort deficiency in character, lack of intelligence, various neuroses, etc. It's a load of baloney just designed to bait folks.
post #189 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS
It's a load of baloney just designed to bait folks.
That baloney is a 2-way street. I've heard people here say things that indicate that they don't even understand that a CD player *is* a computer, and that you need to good *analog HiFi* CD player to hear CD's properly.

Some people insult audiophiles because they think they overpay in return for nothing, while some audiophiles don't know what they are talking about and proceed to insult people who do. AFAIK, there's some truth and plenty of arrogant BS in both camps.

For myself, I think things sound better if I epoxy green M&M's to my CD's. But only if I use *organic* epoxy, none of that crappy synthetic stuff ;-)
post #190 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by russdog
That baloney is a 2-way street.
Well, I would agree with you that both "camps" are populated by folks who may lack knowledge on certain subjects, just like both camps have folks who are biased one way or another. But not knowing something or not understanding something, in my view, is much less of a fault than repeatedly making efforts to support your point by insulting others' intelligence. There are valid points to be made by both sides, and the repeated insults and dogmatic statements that are found in the posts of certain folks are annoying and obscure many of the valid points made by other folks on both sides of the debate.
post #191 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferbose
Yes, you are wrong.

I had a friend who knew cable manufacturers in Taiwan. He was told stories of many hi-end cable companies repackaging Asian cables and raise the price 20 fold.

Another friend opened up some hi-end cables only to see cheap material/bad construction. In one case, the cable company did make their cables in North America, using HOME DEPOT WIRES, and sell them for hundreds or thousands of dollars. I just did a Goggle search on this brand of cables, and found so many glaring comments--hail to the Home Depot wires. Audiophiles and audio reviewer must be the funniest people on earth. Don't laugh too quickly, because this brand of cable is very popular on head-fi due to some super heavy-weight head-fiers' recommendations.

If someone decides to write a book to investigate all the shady business practices of the hi-end cable industry, the result would be hilarious. Fortunately, these cables are so expensive that no one can afford to open enough of them to write a book. You don't want to know the truth, and you can't handle the truth.

Let's face it, without the super-profitable cable industry, hi-end would collapse. Cable is the money maker in hi-end retail and cable companies are major advertisers in magazines. Unless you want hi-end to vanish, we can't declare a war against dishonest cable companies. People paying for expensive cables are in fact generously donating to the entire industry, making the audio hobby sustainable for the rest of us. We should applaud their efforts and encourage them to try even more exotic products.

Don't label me a cable nay-sayer just because I am sarcastic. I am not trying to tell jokes but just to describe the reality. The reality is often harder to accept than fiction. Of course wires can make a difference. Otherwise why would many top studios use made-in-Japan Mogami wires instead of Home Depot wires? Points of contact, like crimped joints, solder points and those between connectors, can really make significant differences. Why do you think audio professionals like nickel-plated connectors instead of gold? Gold coating is so thin that it wears off easily.

Cable designs are complicated and involve quite a few compromises. Reading Pro-co's white papers is a good place to start. Audio professional have looked into the matter very closely and came up with affordable and reasonably good solutions. The solutions are so reasonable and affordable that almost the entire industry has settled on similar products--that's why you don't see audio professionals fuzzing over cables. I believe it is possible to make better cables than what Mogami and Pro-Co has to offer, but it will be commercially expensive (DIY is a great alternative). But how do you verify your expensive cable is better made? If you assume it is uber-expensive, so it must be very well made, then I must thank you for your kind and unconditional support of my favorite hobby.

Well he is not that wrong, and IMO that is supposed to be like that, but what happen all the time, is what you say. And see that I said most of the times, even with good and well regarded and known brand names, which names I will not mention, to avoid any further hassle, flame wars, an people getting offended, and chime in with stupid arguments, but most of the times the manufacturers of high end cables, use expressions like: "proprietary materials", "proprietary alloys", "proprietary geometry", "proprietary braided", "proprietary dielectrics" etc...but never specify nor go in details of which, or how, or whose, just to hide that indeed they are using proprietary materials, and even intellectual properties from other manufacturers, and hide these identities behind a fancy jacket and labels, and sometimes far worst than Belden, Canare and Mogami, and in the best cases just done by them OEM...at least while buying Blue Jeans Cables, and similar companies we know and expect what to get, for what we paid, very clear and explicit...for good or bad, and I like honesty sorry...a fancy jacket, with a $2.00 cable inside, as we have seen many time here, will not make it sound better...nor will make me more happier...
post #192 of 578
What a great test. It is a shame that you didn't include an extra one that was identical to one of the other three. That would have made an excellent control regarding people's ability to actually even tell the difference accurately in the first place.
post #193 of 578
Well, nothing here seems to really change the opinion (unfortunately) I've held for qutie some time that when dealing with audio interconnects, there is probably some differences between the very low end and the mid range type of cable but the differences between mid-range and thes upposed "high end" are nearly non-existant.

In other words, I wouldn't dare hook up my $1,000 speakers with a $3.00 set of speaker cable. But on the other hand, when you can buy what appears to be some pretty solid speaker cable for about $0.60-$1.00/foot, spending $25.00-$30.00/foot seems like a complete waste of $$.
post #194 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSloth
What a great test. It is a shame that you didn't include an extra one that was identical to one of the other three. That would have made an excellent control regarding people's ability to actually even tell the difference accurately in the first place.
We simply have to put together another test. Who cares how long it takes. With a little bit of effort and $$ we could go a long way to answer a great many deal of questions out there. The REAL question is, are we all humble enough to accept a new test and the results that come from it?
post #195 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
We simply have to put together another test. Who cares how long it takes. With a little bit of effort and $$ we could go a long way to answer a great many deal of questions out there. The REAL question is, are we all humble enough to accept a new test and the results that come from it?
If we are going to do a new test, definitely to avoid any more detractors to interfere, an bash the results, and make it more accepted, it must be done in a more "scientific" base, and with a large number of samples, according to their suggestions, based in logical requests, nothing like we need a Linn and a B-52 or a balanced Maestro, to perform the test, otherwise it is not valid...for which I suggest also to open a thread to receive and get as many suggestions and inputs as we can get, from them, to make it more universal, and more accepted among those "statistic geniuses"...

Another suggestion, those detractors should be invited to participate in such test as well, this will avoid later on them to go and bash, a test which they contributed, and if they refuse to participate....well we all know what to think of those in that case...just to see if the results will be any different, of if we again will see how they will fail miserably as well...
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