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Blind Cable Taste Test RESULTS! - Page 10

post #136 of 578
It is, of course, possible to claim that anyone who fails the test, failed it due to insufficient system / experience / ears. However, this then turns into a somewhat circular argument, not to mention it becomes an unfalsifiable hypothesis as well, and thus it's rather a shaky claim.
post #137 of 578
haven't been checking this part of the forums much so I'm a bit late to come in, but this is amazing. Ed finally posted results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwood
And if ever a challenger wins over the Blind Cable Taste Test, he or she will gain the people's ovation and fame forever.
lol


I may post a few thoughts on my approach to this whole thing later on....
post #138 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
The question is... Are people reacting to the results because it runs counter to their beliefs or do they not like the results because the test was truly at fault. From what I can tell, you can critize the test all you want but the plain and simple fact is that EXPERIENCED audiophiles could NOT tell the difference reliably between a rat shack cable and a better cable. Remember, we are talking about a group of people here who make it a personal hobby to do this kind of thing. This isn't my grandmother making the opinion here.
Jon
I truly have no opinion in the matter. I am looking at this from as scientific of a point of view as I possibly can. You are making claims that are baseless and you have no evidence to prove it otherwise. These kinds of tests are so easily misinterpreted - it's not really the information itself that is important, but instead, how that information is interpreted. There are far too many variables here which are unable to be controlled and spin this experiment far off track. The experiment also suffers from a design flaw which I mentioned in my previous post.

Believe me, some of these peoples' systems are far from transparent enough to make a good decision. Some people were running systems with clip-on headphones running through CMOY amplifiers into portable MP3 players, if I recall correctly. I originally volunteered for this experiment, but signed myself off of it when I realized that I would simply be contributing to a faulty experiment, and I didn't want to add to the already uncontrolled results.

There are very few Head-Fi members here who are truly "experienced" audiophiles. Very few of them have anything even resembling a true "low-end" setup. I myself fall into about a low-end (or possibly mid-level) setup. The people taking these tests should be experienced audiophiles with well-matched and optimally-built stereo speaker equipment; not a bunch of headphone geeks with portable music devices. Yes, the number of these Head-Fiers may be substantial by just looking at plain numbers, but how about the ratio of experienced audiophiles to all the people participating in this experiment?

Again, I have no bias here. I have 100 dollar interconnects, but would be just as willing to not have them (with my money back, of course ). I bought them for mere security reasons early on when I was just getting started with my first system. I am just examining this experiment and believe there are several major flaws which do not allow it to accurately represent the results desired.
post #139 of 578
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K2Grey
It is, of course, possible to claim that anyone who fails the test, failed it due to insufficient system / experience / ears. However, this then turns into a somewhat circular argument, not to mention it becomes an unfalsifiable hypothesis as well, and thus it's rather a shaky claim.
I don't believe that anyone has failed this test.

(well, only the people that took more than two weeks with their turn, cough cough.)

-Ed
post #140 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayt999
haven't been checking this part of the forums much so I'm a bit late to come in, but this is amazing. Ed finally posted results.

lol


I may post a few thoughts on my approach to this whole thing later on....
Respect, Fame, Glory... you deserve it!

Edwood... may i take the test, (I'll be at LA meet).. you can switch the symbols around so i won't know... please? (just for personal reference).
post #141 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleestack
Or maybe he is like me and can't overcome the negative psychoacoustic impact of looking at gear that looks like crap.
Don't forget the negative psychoacoustic impact of merely *thinking about* gear that was inexpensive to purchase, e.g. "this amp just couldn't sound great, because it was cheap" and such. I'm convinced there's also an opposite effect -- an expensive piece will tend to sound good purely because of its price tag. Unfortunately, I feel that this effect is exceedingly strong among audiophiles (some more than others), and even tends to reflect badly on us and our hobby.

Edit -- I'm not entirely immune to such effects, so I'm not excluding myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbriant
A "believer's" argument I also agree with, is that any noticeable differences between the sound of cables ( if there are any), won't be noticeable on low end systems.
I've never really understood that argument. Don't you think one could at least hear hum/noise, grunge or grain from a crappy system more acutely using "better" cables? Stands to reason that if one can hear "quality" better with a given pair of cables, one could hear "crap" more clearly as well... thus not requiring a high end system to detect cable differences. Maybe there's something I'm missing, though (?).
post #142 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by fewtch
Don't forget the negative psychoacoustic impact of merely *thinking about* gear that was inexpensive to purchase, e.g. "this amp just couldn't sound great, because it was cheap" and such. I'm convinced there's also an opposite effect -- an expensive piece will tend to sound good purely because of its price tag. Unfortunately, I feel that this effect is exceedingly strong among audiophiles (some more than others), and even tends to reflect badly on us and our hobby.

Edit -- I'm not entirely immune to such effects, so I'm not excluding myself.
I think many misperceptions are simply a result of the failure to level match.

As for psychoacoustics, it definitely works both ways. I'm just honest with myself about which pieces I buy purely based on performance and which have a heavy dose of eye candy. You rarely hear me talk about night and day differences unless I'm talking about speakers, room correction or music. I gave up on cables after owning a complete set of Cardas GR and hearing no difference from basic Cobalt cables. It made no sense for me given that room equalization and correction would have a far greater effect than a cable possibly could. I only kept one set of Cardas for my SDS-XLR, and purely because it looks great with the amp.

If psychoacoustics actually affect my perceptions and enable me to enjoy things more, I don't fight it, however, I am fortunate enough to be in a position not to care. When people ask for recommendations, I try to keep the psychoacoustics out of it.

I'm not surprised at all by the results or the reactions of Edwood's test. (Great effort by the way.) Nevertheless, I don't discount other people's perceptions and certainly don't have golden ears. If anything, maybe the results will get someone to reconsider the necessity of that $1,500 interconnect or power cord purchase and think about the dramatic changes in sound that can be achieved by picking different headphones or music.
post #143 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobs
However, you can clearly draw a conclusion that the difference between the cables may not be as much as it is made up to be.
No you cant!

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but people were asked to guess which cable they thought each was... not which was better!

It is like lining up 14 people and asking them to guess someones name and given three choices. Hmmm, he looks like a Chris... I'll go with that.
post #144 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by philodox
No you cant!

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but people were asked to guess which cable they thought was which... not which was better!

It is like lining up 14 people and asking them to guess someones name and given three choices. Hmmm, he looks like a Chris... I'll go with that.
With the difference that those three cables should have a completelly different sonic signature, and we know those signatures, and they must not sound alike if we go by what the golden ears, and the believers, had stated for years and years, and they missed miserably in the majority of the cases...

In other words and using your same analogy, they know that Peter should be a black guy and 300 pounds, John 150 and white, and Chris an asiatic of 96 pounds, and they missed in guessing all the time, with the three guys in front of them...
post #145 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller
and we know those signatures
We do? There was absolutely no indication given that the participants were familiar with any of the three cables they tested. Were they given another set of cables with proper labels in order to familiarize themselves with the sound first? If so, the test may have *some* value... but I don't think this was done.

Personally, I am confident that I could pick the silver cable out of the bunch as all silver cables I've heard have a distinct sound [which I don’t like], but I am unfamiliar with the other two. Also, what if one of those others is a bright cable as well? Then I might call it the silver one in error. Does this prove anything? No. It just means I guessed wrong.

Another thing to consider: Even if they did the test in the format of 'rank these cables' it would be pretty much meaningless since everyone would have different systems. The main reason that cables sound different is based on the output impedance of the device driving the cable, the input impedance of the destination device and the capacitance of the cable itself. Therefore, the cables will not sound the same in different systems.

Listen, I'm no advocate of spending $1000 on an IC, but cables do sound different depending on the circumstances. I suppose if everyone was using audio equipment that was perfectly designed and we had rigid standards for various devices then we could all use the same cables... but such is not the case. Personally, I like the variety anyways. Standards just enforce complacency and destroy creativity.
post #146 of 578
Any chance of a canadian leg of this test happening. ^^

Biggie.
post #147 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by philodox
We do? There was absolutely no indication given that the participants were familiar with any of the three cables they tested. Were they given another set of cables with proper labels in order to familiarize themselves with the sound first? If so, the test may have *some* value... but I don't think this was done.

Personally, I am confident that I could pick the silver cable out of the bunch as all silver cables I've heard have a distinct sound [which I don’t like], but I am unfamiliar with the other two. Also, what if one of those others is a bright cable as well? Then I might call it the silver one in error. Does this prove anything? No. It just means I guessed wrong.

Another thing to consider: Even if they did the test in the format of 'rank these cables' it would be pretty much meaningless since everyone would have different systems. The main reason that cables sound different is based on the output impedance of the device driving the cable, the input impedance of the destination device and the capacitance of the cable itself. Therefore, the cables will not sound the same in different systems.

So in other words there will be no test in this round green planet that can prove that someone is wrong, when you do not want to admit it. All of the tests that you could posibly think off, will be done in different systems, with different ears, and with differet impedances, that was a good one!!!! So I render my case, and please feel free to believe what you want, to me case is over, cables one more time have prove to be voodoo and period..

What about that absurd failure of the test done with speakers cables we know, that they even took notes of the differences among them, and they were all the time listening to a cheap zip cord, what you would say to that? That those speakers were not able to reveal those differences, and the guys there were not in a comfortable sofa that will affect the hearing, and the light was off, or what???
post #148 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller
All of the tests that you could posibly think off, will be done in different systems, with different ears, and with differet impedances, that was a good one!!!!
That was a good one? I suppose you think all CD players have the same output levels and impedances and all preamp designs are the same?

As for your issues with the 'different systems/different ears' argument, let me put it this way. I don't like the CD3000. That is an opinion of mine based on my preferences and may be in some way influenced by the setups I have heard them on. Now, if you can accept that opinion which differs from your own, why can't you do the same with cables?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller
So in other words there will be no test in this round green planet that can prove that someone is wrong, when you do not want to admit it.
No, that is not what I said at all. Just pointing out what is wrong with this test and what could potentially be an issue in future tests. What exactly is it that I 'do not want to admit'?
post #149 of 578
We all know about the impedances and differences, that is what I said that this will invalidade then all tests you can make....

Quote:
Originally Posted by philodox
What exactly is it that I 'do not want to admit'?

That people missed because the differences are really subtle, if any, and that if a $2.00 cable was considered as a silver one, by certain amount of audiophiles, that has a relevance IMO, that nobody can deny, as they should not be confused that easily by audiophiles...of course a better test could be conducted, and then some others will shime in as well pointing out different flaws...
post #150 of 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller
With the difference that those three cables should have a completelly different sonic signature,
They did, I took the test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovkiller
and we know those signatures
No, we don't!
That was the probelm with this test.
Please re-read Hirsch's excellent post #112.
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