The Stax thread - Page 141  

You, sir, are very rude. I appreciate that you know a heck of a lot about what you're talking about, but all your knowledge, credibility goes out the window if you cannot treat another with the respect they deserve. It's absolutely crystal clear that Carl meant no harm, yet you seem to have to put other people down. We don't live in a society where barbaric behaviour wins praise and recognition. It's very sad as you clearly know exactly what you're talking about. Let your knowledge speak for itself. We're already impressed. There's no need to dip into another person's bucket for more self esteem.

Here is a 2020 system on Audiogon that's rather cheap:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....wek&1174110304

I have this set myself, and they are pretty darned good. I've not seen them much cheaper. The new model with improved (?) driver goes for around 500.

I would like to suggest that it is you who should be making apologies. If a mere hobby can get you this "brassed off" then you have some serious problems. Everyone has different opinions on what they like in this an any other hobby, and this forum exists so people can share their experiences and opinions.

Cool down and enjoy the music!

A letter to my private mailbox reminds me that on a now forgotten conference some fellow was pulled up by an old-timer for a clearly wrong statement. "But," explained the perpetual noob, "I said that before when Andre was on the board, and he didn't object, so it's gotta be right, innit?"

So, lest it go into street myth because no one countered it, we shouldn't let misinformation stand without immediate correction.

To anyone with extensive 6SN7 *experience* Carl's flat statement about 6SN7 rings false. Perhaps Carl is confusing the 6SN7 with the 6SL7, which is a 1W pre-amp tube with less current capability than the 7.5W 6SN7.

But, to knock this street myth in the making on the head, let's investigate whether 6SN7s "have enough anode current to drive 300B fully". A good 300B transformer extends to 40kHz or so. A 6SN7 requires a fraction over 8mA to drive a 300B to 40kHz. Let's run it another 25 per cent over that just to be certain we kill the Miller capacitance. So call it 10mA at 200V at -5V bias. No one who has measured that topology at the output of the 300B still thinks the 6SN7 is limp.

The 6SN7 is actually a small power tube, rated at 5W per half, 7.5W with both halves in service. It is also very sturdy and so can be used at the full theoretical spec without reducing its lifespan appreciably. So we can bump up the current to 15mA at 250V and still get 200Vptp of clean swing with both sides in use. Or we can parallel the two tubes in the envelope for 30mA.

So, whoever originated this story that Carl retails about 6SN7 not cutting it as drivers for 300B needs to study the spec sheet for the tube and write out 100 times on the blackboard: "The 6SN7 is a 7.5W driver tube, not some limp little 12A?7." For perspective, the 30mA available from a 6SN7 is half as much again as you need to drive 845 to the full frequency extension of the best output transformers, never mind 300B. The 6SN7 is a driver tube that leaves hairy footprints.

There is also nothing more linear than a 6SN7 that can be used as a driver. That's refinement as well as beef.

I imagine that this story about the 6SN7 that Carl spreads originated with new boys on the block trying to make their mark by attacking the orthodoxy; it's an old story, trying to find something new to put your stamp on a niche. But the 6SN7 is such a revered orthodoxy because it is indispensible to low-noise sound; indispensible literally means that there is no uncompromised replacement.

Full disclosure: I use even heftier tubes as drivers in my personal amps, 417A to drive 300B, trioded EL34, 300B or other kilovolt tubes to drive kilovolt transmitting tubes -- but when, rather than a personal preference, I publish a "standard good" amp such as the T44bis "Populaire" (on my netsite, URL under my signature), it sure as God made little green apples uses 6SN7 drivers to get the right curves and harmonics and the quietest sound on the planet. Anything but a 6SN7 will by definition give inferior results; that isn't an opinion but a truism known to everyone who actually measures the noise of his amp and its composition. With electrostatics, any shortfall in linearity will be more disturbing than with lesser speakers; count on it; that is another reason to use 6SN7 with the best amps, destined for electrostatic use.

Furthermore, contrary to the subtext in this discussion (Carl's axiomatic assumption of using maximum current on the driver), there are good reasons (besides not electrocuting yourself with your headphones) not to go for the maximum current available on the driver but only for the *right* amount. The right amount is determined by your speakers, and in the case of Stax earspeakers excessive current on the driver stage in the amp can very easily be the cause of screechy treble. As it happens, 6SN7 implemented with modern conservatism as distinct from cookbook conservatism naturally fall into a mode of operation which avoids screeching earspeakers. The linearity, the correct current capability, and much good experience with the tube, are three of the reasons why I chose 6SN7s for the output tubes on the dedicated Stax driver amp (actually a family of amps with various power supplies) I shall publish when I get around to writing the accompanying text.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

I think he specifically was referring to that Audiogon listing in his post

I've been eying that system for quite some time, and it looks like there's another interested party now. Might have to make my move sooner than I thought

BTW, does anyone else feel that this thread has gotten a bit too esoteric?

Thanks for clearing that up Andre I was confused with the 6SN7 comment thinking to myself, Isnt that a damn driver if that cant do it most of what Ive seen is rubbish

Lol, no I was not referring to that audiogon listing, so don't be affraid, I am not another interested party of that listing .

Oh, okay then. Guess I'll way a bit longer for the price to come down then

I'm not sure who you're referring to because everybody here admits the X-III's are lacking in low bass, most admit the highs are somewhat soft and diffuse, and the soundstage is a little compressed by comparison to the later Stax cans.

What unites X-III fans is a belief that they reproduce the 100-5000 Hz range more accurately than pretty well anything out there and far better than the Lambda variants. However, nobody is suggesting they're beyond criticism at the frequency extremes.

Now, O2 owners like to pronounce on how much better their phone is than the X-III. I've never heard the O2 but I recall how the 404 was supposed to likewise demolish the X-III (well, it's newer! It must be better!) and that little myth has been happily laid to rest. Maybe the O2 is a massive improvement but I note that a lot of people think it's not a huge advance over the 404 and anyway I'm sceptical about pronouncements about stratospherically expensive gear. I've yet to meet anybody who wasn't affected by the price or reputation of different products. Ask yourself if the sound you're hearing from your O2's was coming from a cheap Bose phone would you be going into ecstacies? Now, be honest!

My other caveat about the O2 is that Stax design philosophy post-Lambda goes against my "accuracy is everything" grain. And the O2 still appears to be designed for cuddly nights in front of the log fire rather than the "warts and all" reproduction I'm looking for.

I have owned a 404, and heard the O2 on several occasions. The two aren't even in the same league, the O2 does everything better.

How can you tell if it is the new model?

Ok I'll be honest. I'm not affected by price, at all. I use a Sony Playstation in my secondary rig while a have a few other much more expensive "audiophile approved" sources collecting dust. I have the He90 and while it is 5 times (market value) more expensive then the SR-007 I never use them. I just upgraded the IC and PC's in my main rig that are much less expensive then the stuff they replaced. For me it's not about the price tag but the work or materials put into the product. I own the the oldest and the only true craftsman bakery left in Iceland and that is a business where you learn that all ingredients matter and while something is more expensive it often uses cheaper materials because most people don't care. The same goes for all but a few of the high end audio companies. I would never buy a Rolex watch but after seeing my brothers Patek they are on my list. That's real quality much like the stuff from Kondo and yes Stax.

My main point is the lack of a reference point most people have. Comparing speakers, live music and headphones is impossible and when you listen to something like the SR-X it is so good you can't but wonder if they can do better but Stax has always progressed with every new design. They were experimenting with cables way before most companies and when you compare the many different models over the years you can hear the evolution. The SR-007 has the sound stage of the SR-Sigma Pro, the clarity of the SR-Lambda Signature and the even handed signature of the SR-X line while upping the ante on all fronts. When they are driven right they do truly shine...

It's the old model (2020) with the SRM-212 driver (black face). The new model is the SRS-2050A, which has the silver-faced SRM-252A driver, which supposedly has a larger bandwidth and parallel out terminals. Both use the 202 phones. Retail (US) is 675, PriceJapan is 424. I think around 300 is a fair price for a good condition 2020 set, as I doubt you'd hear any sonic differences between the 2020 and 2050.

Omega pads on SR-X?

Hi,
I'm new here , but an electrostatic lover for many eons, and in possession of a Jecklin Float esl, Stax SR-X Mk3, and a pair of Quad ESL 63's.
I would like to elevate further the magnificent qualities of the Stax by mounting Omega earpads on 'em. I'm on the verge of ordering a pair at Audiocubes.
But how does one go about fitting them? I have two left hands and no inclination to destroy the sr-x in the process.
Pictures would probably help.
Thx!