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M3 - Second Biggest Disappointment Ever - Page 3

post #31 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
As I previously stated, my CE595 should be arriving this Friday. My M3 came earlier than expected.

Many people here consider that the biggest difference in sound quality is between headphones, right? If I considered the difference in sound betweent the SR-80s and the A500s to be minimal, why would I expect a source upgrade to yield such great sonic results? ESPECIALLY, when this is nearing the point of diminishing returns much more than at the A500/SR-80 level.

This is going to get messy. *FLAME SHIELD ACTIVATED*
Then why did you buy the M3, if you already knew what was expected?

post #32 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungrych
OBVIOUSLY NOT! AND AMP DOES NOT MAGICALLY FIX FLAWS IN THE HEADPHONES
Nods. An amp can improve soundstaging, speed, control and clarity but it won't change frequency response in any meaningful way thats the headphones job.

An example of this is the Senn 600. Poorly amped you get a lot of its vieled, congested, muddy... but from people running great, not necessarily pricy, amps the viel drops(clarity), congestion gives way to great separation(speed) and muddy gives way to involving bass(control). But what you never hear is SinglePower SDS users going on about how the amp makes the Senn 600 as bright or forward as a Grado RS1 since thats mostly frequency response based.

I think once upon a time gerG posted the SA5000's response. It had pretty flat bass comparable to the Beyer 880. If the house thing doesn't interest you you might want to try an AKG 701, Beyer 990 or Senn 650 to bring in some honest contrast to the Sony. Then build around the can you really prefer. I could never live with the Sony 5000, Grado RS1 or Beyer 880 as my only cans. That doesn't mean others can't but doesn't mean you can either
post #33 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solude
The M3 is typically described as smooth and warm where the PPA is detailed and forward.
Is that so? I was not under the impression the M3 was typically regarded as smooth and warm. Well in any case disregard my comments, M3 owners or people more exposed to them certainly can speak a lot better about it than me.
post #34 of 249
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by akwok
Then why did you buy the M3, if you already knew what was expected?

How did I expect this (Where exactly did I state this?)? I was expecting a more tangible difference in sound quality with the M3, I never expected it to be this minimal. Upon realizing this, I made my previous post that made me realize that a source upgrade probably wouldn't make that much of a difference.

There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinterpretation.
post #35 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
How did I expect this (Where exactly did I state this?)? I was expecting a more tangible difference in sound quality with the M3, I never expected it to be this minimal. Upon realizing this, I made my previous post that made me realize that a source upgrade probably wouldn't make that much of a difference.

There seems to be a lot of confusion and misinterpretation.
You are awesome.
post #36 of 249
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solude
Nods. An amp can improve soundstaging, speed, control and clarity but it won't change frequency response in any meaningful way thats the headphones job.

An example of this is the Senn 600. Poorly amped you get a lot of its vieled, congested, muddy... but from people running great, not necessarily pricy, amps the viel drops(clarity), congestion gives way to great separation(speed) and muddy gives way to involving bass(control). But what you never hear is SinglePower SDS users going on about how the amp makes the Senn 600 as bright or forward as a Grado RS1 since thats mostly frequency response based.

I think once upon a time gerG posted the SA5000's response. It had pretty flat bass comparable to the Beyer 880. If the house thing doesn't interest you you might want to try an AKG 701, Beyer 990 or Senn 650 to bring in some honest contrast to the Sony. Then build around the can you really prefer. I could never live with the Sony 5000, Grado RS1 or Beyer 880 as my only cans. That doesn't mean others can't but doesn't mean you can either


I point you to my previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE PROBLEM WITH THESE HEADPHONES IS! OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT MY SONIC TASTES THAN I DO, SO THIS WOULD BE OF GREAT BENEFIT. AS FAR AS MY IGNORANT MIND KNOWS, I NEVER SAID I WAS DISAPPOINED WITH THE HEADPHONES.

Seriously, where are you getting all of this? Please don't try to put words in my mouth.
Where exactly are people getting the idea that I suddenly don't like the sound of my SA5k's and expected the M3 to fix some supposed flaws in the headphone that I've never said were flaws before?
post #37 of 249
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by akwok
You are awesome.
No, man, you're awesome! That's an awesome electrostat rig you got there! (SERIOUSLY)
post #38 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
My old Pioneer cd player from my old budget stereo system. Pioneer PD-M403.
I believe what you are finding is crap in = crap out. I suggest holding on to the M³ until you have upgraded your source. As you said, economically speaking you've already taken the hit, the value isn't going to go down drastically in the couple weeks it takes to get your new source.

Nate
post #39 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
How did I expect this (Where exactly did I state this?)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
Many people here consider that the biggest difference in sound quality is between headphones, right? If I considered the difference in sound betweent the SR-80s and the A500s to be minimal, why would I expect a source upgrade to yield such great sonic results? ESPECIALLY, when this is nearing the point of diminishing returns much more than at the A500/SR-80 level.
I believe you shouldn't expect more differences from a new amp than a new headphone. You shouldn't expect an amp upgrade to yield such great sonic results either.
post #40 of 249
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by n_maher
I believe what you are finding is crap in = crap out. I suggest holding on to the M³ until you have upgraded your source. As you said, economically speaking you've already taken the hit, the value isn't going to go down drastically in the couple weeks it takes to get your new source.

Nate
My source should come this Friday, so I should impressions then. It's a Sony SCD-CE595. All of you extreme audiophile guys, please start your venting about how this is such a budget and inadequate source that it's no surprise that I don't like the sound (if that's what happens). I think it'll help make the future thread much cleaner and better organized.

But yeah, I guess I'll see what improvement a "real" source will create in a couple days. I'm going to keep the CE595 anyways since I've been wanting a new CD player/my own CD player for a while now. I'm thinking that if I still am disappointed by the sound, then I'm just going to downgrade to a simple PINT (Or something else, but whatever it is I'm looking to spend south of $150) -> SA1k system and spend the rest of the money on games and music CDs.

flamerz - I see what you're saying. To further clarify: I was expecting the M3 to improve the sound much more than what I perceived today. I did NOT expect it to be this minimal, as others seem to be stating.

So, to put this all into perspective, why should I expect the source to make much of a difference if I didn't find different headphones to make such a drastic difference (Such a drastic difference from source to source as many on here preach)?
post #41 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
Many people here consider that the biggest difference in sound quality is between headphones, right?
Ah I see where things went wrong. Headphones gives the biggest difference in sound presentation not quality. Which is really just saying that a Grado and Senn sound different in an obvious way but in presentation not quality.

Its about balance, a Senn 650 is wasted on an iPod just a Merdian G08 is wasted on iPod buds. Both of those scenarios will sound awful since no one piece can rise above itself. For your rig, no matter how much you dump into amps and headphone neither can up the quality of the source's feed. At best they can do no harm and in the cans case alter the presentation in a hopefully preferable way.

Given your impression I'd guess the M3 is doing just that. Its not changed the source's presentation, but has improved on the faults of the stereo amp by providing better control and speed in the bass.

The bad news is deals in the source market are scarce. You really either need to be running a PC rig where there are deals to be had or spend to get where you want. In my opinion the quality differences in the sub 500 range are more sidesteps than upgrades and in the 500-2000 range you get some nice rewards for your dollar and then diminishing returns kick in 2000+. Year matters too. Last year's 1000 player could very well be this year's $500 player. Sorry

I'll add to that, that I think a 4:2:1 ratio works pretty well in headphones. So for your Sony 5000(~350?) you're looking at a 1400 source, 700 amp and the 350 for the Sony to hit dimishing returns. Lots of choices on AudioGon for sources in that range, SinglePower PPX SLAM, HeadAmp GS1, Mapletree Ear+ HD, HeadRoom Desktop, Corda HA2... for amps. But start at the source. Otherwise you might as well be building a system around an MP3 collection Oh and for amps and sources buy used, let the rich guy eat the cost of retail

Looking at your profile though... the Sony is a poor choice for electronica. You'd find the Senn 650 or Beyer 990 far more involving for bass rich, melodic rhythum. Deja Vu for today but Massive Attack through the Senn 650 is an experience
post #42 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
My source should come this Friday, so I should impressions then. It's a Sony SCD-CE595.
Here's to hoping it rocks your socks off. And I know you've already said you don't believe in the whole "amp burn in thing" but I'd just suggest that just because you don't close a door doesn't mean that you're forced through it either. Give it a chance.

Quote:
So, to put this all into perspective, why should I expect the source to make much of a difference if I didn't find different headphones to make such a drastic difference?
Again, if your source is putting out garbage and your headphones are inadequately driven I wouldn't expect to hear a large difference between headphones either. You've eliminated one possibility (with the M³) so follow through and check the other obvious one.

Regards,

Nate
post #43 of 249
@OP:

Well, one sure way to see if you really can/cannot tell the difference between your M3 and your old stereo amp is this: listen to the SA5K+M3+Sony SACD player for a week or two, and then go back to your old setup. If you still can't hear a difference, then you will know for certain whether you want to continue with this hobby or not. And for that duration in which you are listening to your new setup, don't focus on JUST looking for differences. Instead, just listen to it as you would listen to any other setup and enjoy the music. So basically live with your new setup for a week or two, and then make a final decision. The reason I say this is because like someone else said earlier: you've already taken the financial hit, and waiting a week or two will not decrease the market value of your components.
post #44 of 249
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solude
Its about balance, a Senn 650 is wasted on an iPod just a Merdian G08 is wasted on iPod buds. Both of those scenarios will sound awful since no one piece can rise above itself. For your rig, no matter how much you dump into amps and headphone neither can up the quality of the source's feed. At best they can do no harm and in the cans case alter the presentation in a hopefully preferable way.
...
Don't you think that there's a drastic difference between iPod -> HD650 vs. G08 -> iPod earbuds? I mean, don't you think that the limitation/bottle-necking is VASTLY greater on the G08 -> iPod earbud rig? I mean, straight out of my Karma, my SA5k's were still singing beautifully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solude
Looking at your profile though... the Sony is a poor choice for electronica. You'd find the Senn 650 or Beyer 990 far more involving for bass rich, melodic rhythum. Deja Vu for today but Massive Attack through the Senn 650 is an experience
I can't get past the idea of a dark, slow, muddy signature to try out the HD650s After posting a sample of the type of music I listen to, it was nearly unanimous on here that the best headphones for me would be the SA5k's. One reason I didn't like the A500s as much as my SA1k's was because the sound was too smooth and obese, so to speak. It wasn't as coherent and clear as my SA1k's.

Nice post though, Solude. Really put things into perspective and made me realize the significance of my impressions.
post #45 of 249
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by humanflyz
@OP:

Well, one sure way to see if you really can/cannot tell the difference between your M3 and your old stereo amp is this: listen to the SA5K+M3+Sony SACD player for a week or two, and then go back to your old setup. If you still can't hear a difference, then you will know for certain whether you want to continue with this hobby or not. And for that duration in which you are listening to your new setup, don't focus on JUST looking for differences. Instead, just listen to it as you would listen to any other setup and enjoy the music. So basically live with your new setup for a week or two, and then make a final decision. The reason I say this is because like someone else said earlier: you've already taken the financial hit, and waiting a week or two will not decrease the market value of your components.
My philsophy is that if you don't like the sound within the first hour, then you don't like the sound period. Any extra time spent with the rig is simply conforming your mind to accept the new sound as the "standard" sound and other mental aspects start coming into play, all of which ultimately cause you to believe that you're rig now suddenly sounds better than it did upon first listen. Psycho-acoustical

I'm a DBT kind of guy as I believe that reveals the absolute honesty about how something really sounds, without external influences such as your subconscious and its concerns.

I only posted an IC on these forums as I plan to at least try out the rig with the new source. I'll still be listening until then. There's a possibility that this could be the reverse "honeymoon" that happens to some people (Such as I'm suddenly disappointed with it and I go to town with that disappointment), but I doubt it.
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