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Opening Shots: SACD vs. Vinyl - Page 4

post #46 of 65
The other thing to keep in mind is that SACD is a format in its infancy. You're comparing a fully mature fomat (vinyl) with what, 80 years of development behind it, to one with 4 years or so. Not making "excuses" for SACD, just making a point.

Look how far CD sound has come in the last 20 years of it existence (all the way from completely disappointing to merely acceptable ). SACD technology, native DSD recording, matering techniques/eqipment, and players will progress as well and continue to sound better and better, so we haven't seen all that it can/will do by a long shot.

All that said, I don't see how anyone will ever convince the vinyl junkies that there is something better. I suspect that if it doesn't sound like vinyl, they'll think it's "wrong" no matter what its positive qualities. Also, psychologically, vynil heads are emotionally invested in the format, as they've held out for years against the onslaught of digital, becoming somewhat marginalized in the process, having to obsessively hunt down harder and harder to find vinyl treasures. With all that history it would take a bit of pride-sawllowing to switch over to digital now.

Myself, I never owned a turntable or LPs, so I can't really contribute to the SACD vs. vinyl comparison (but I certainly can contribute to a SACD vs. CD debate). Started with cassette tapes and switched to CD in the late 80s. So I was never biased in favor of the vinyl sound.

markl
post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally posted by kelly
Hirsch
It proved your ability to be sarcastic but of this I had no doubts. What it could do, if you felt inclined to share your experiences, is give us all a greater sense of what kind of qualities you feel vinyl excels at and which qualities, if any, you think SACD can do even better. Knowing your associated equipment would be beneficial, of course. As I said, this isn't the kind of debate one can "win" and knowing what qualities people subjectively feel belong to each format is the best we can hope to gather from such conversations. I believe that's worth it, though.
Kelly, my apologies. I will try to follow your example, and avoid the use of sarcasm in my posting.

Actually, I believe any comparison of vinyl and SACD is a non-starter. There's so little on SACD to listen to, that I just don't see the point yet. I got some of the Rolling Stones remasters ordered, but so what? I played those albums a lot 30+ years ago, but now? Once the software starts showing up...and that means same day release of a lot of music with CD release, or the ABKCO type disk on the vast majority of all music that comes out, along with release of high quality past issues that might not have been best-sellers, my interest will perk up. I like the couple of SACD's I've got. They get rid of a harshness that's present on my redbook systems that I'm often not even aware of, until I hear the same music without it.

I could do a comparison...take Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells". I've got it on CD, and also the SACD, with remastered redbook layer. I've also got a Mike Oldfield boxed set on Virgin LP that includes the album, and a half-speed mastered audiophile pressing. That give me five versions to compare...but why? Unless I had a good vinyl pressing of the master that was done for the SACD release, what would the comparison show...format differences, or improvements in the mastering process?

The only reason SACD caught my attention at all was the Bruce Katz "Three Feet off the Ground" SACD...and that's mainly because he's an old friend from college.

When I start seeing Laurie Anderson's work on SACD, or Fred Frith's, or Henry Kaiser's, or even Eva Cassidy's, I'll start showing more interest.
post #48 of 65
Quote:
Originally posted by Hirsch


I played those albums a lot 30+ years ago, but now? Once the software starts showing up...and that means same day release of a lot of music with CD release, or the ABKCO type disk on the vast majority of all music that comes out, along with release of high quality past issues that might not have been best-sellers, my interest will perk up.

When I start seeing Laurie Anderson's work on SACD, or Fred Frith's, or Henry Kaiser's, or even Eva Cassidy's, I'll start showing more interest.
Isn't production capacity part of the problem? I read that the Stones reissues took up most, if not all, of the available SACD production for months. It reminds me of the early days of CD.

I wouldn't expect to see Fred Frith for a while. Too bad. I alsowouldn't expect to see Evan Parker, or Ken Vandermark, for awhile either.
post #49 of 65
I don't own any vinyl, but with all this talk I've been thinking about starting a collection. The vast majority of Oris owners own turntables. I bet the combination is awesome.

Kelly: I have the Oris 200... the smaller version of the Oris 150:


Oris 150 w/Onken cabinets


Oris 200 w/Onken cabinets

Compared to the 200, the 150 has greater dynamics and bass integration, but are HUGE and have a smaller (!) sweet spot.

www.bd-design.com
post #50 of 65
Thread Starter 
Hmm... very interesting thread, this one (and nice pics, Nick!)...

But since we all agree that my (dad's) vinyl system is ...lacking... ("not done properly" to quote Fred), perhaps I could get an upgrade recommendation? Our budget isn't really big enough for a new turntable at the moment (lets call it a $350 total limit for upgrades), but anything else is fair game.
post #51 of 65
The Music Hall MMF 2.1 retails for $299, and comes complete with cartridge. It can sometimes be found for less. Use the other $50 for a set of interconnects from the phono stage to your amp.

The ProJect 1.2 is also a decent table at the same price point (and made at the same factory). I can't stand the Sumiko cartridge that the ProJect comes with, so I'd go with the Music Hall.

So, a turntable can be done within your budget, since you've already got a good phono amp. If you can, try and save for an MMF-5, but even on sale that would put you over budget (retail is $499)

If you want to avoid vinyl, sell the phono amp to finance cables. Presumably the chain that interests you is the headphone one. The NS500V, Wheatfield HA-2, Senn HD-600 or Ety ER-4S chain isn't going to be significantly improved by replacing a component for $350 (although some interconnects might help, maybe a power cord).

But if you want to improve vinyl playback, the place to start is the table.
post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Dangerous
I have the Oris 200... the smaller version of the Oris 150:

Compared to the 200, the 150 has greater dynamics and bass integration, but are HUGE and have a smaller (!) sweet spot.

www.bd-design.com
NickDangerous, those look...interesting. Are you aware of any professional reviews of the Oris system?
post #53 of 65
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice, Hirsch! I'll definitely look into that... any IC recommendations for ~$50 (apart from the Outlaws, of course?)
post #54 of 65
Sorry for the confusion, Nick. It's funny that women seem adverse to these horn systems. I think they look much nicer than traditional boxes and boring ass planars.
post #55 of 65
Most of the women that I have talked to tend to not like Audiophile anything (look wise), but they all liked the way B&O products look like.
post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally posted by eric343
Thanks for the advice, Hirsch! I'll definitely look into that... any IC recommendations for ~$50 (apart from the Outlaws, of course?)
At around $50, to beat the Outlaw you have to DIY, IMO. I'm finding that the Outlaws are obscuring some fine detail in some of my setups, and the best inexpensive alternative I've found is making up my own Silver Sonic BL-1 interconnects.

You can get the DH-Labs Silver Sonic BL-1 cable for $3.15/ft at www.partsconnexion.com The Cardas GRMO RCA plugs are $16/pr, and they've got a brand called "Connex" that is a WBT clone for $9.95/pr. There's a DH Labs connector for $13.50/pr at www.welbornelabs.com, but the cable is a bit more expensive, $3.50/ft. If you want the DH Labs plug, you can probably break even by buying the cable at welbornelabs as well, since there would only be one shipping charge. This might well be the way to go, as the Cardas GRMO is designed for a thicker cable than the BL-1, IIRC. Welborne has a Cardas GRCM that appears to accept thinner cables at $14.50/pr.

Assuming you want a one meter set, if you buy from Welborne, six feet of BL-1 cable would be $21, two pairs of DH Labs SSX RCA's $27...and you'll have a cable that IMO outperforms the Outlaw rather nicely (in some of my setups, at least) for about $50.

Note: The DH Labs plug has a good grip, but doesn't lock. The Connex connector at partsconnexion would be the way to go for an inexpensive locking plug (the Cardas plugs don't lock either), and the cable would be a bit less expensive there as well.

I connect the shield of the cable to ground at the source end only, and am experimenting with using a .01 pf capacitor to isolate the shielding (per Jon Risch), but I haven't really done a lot with that yet.

I don't think there is any commercial cable that beats the Outlaw at $50 (commercially assembled Silver Sonic cables run about $100).
post #57 of 65
Thread Starter 
How about DIY Kimber PBJ? Welborne has the wire for $3.50/ft...
post #58 of 65
Sounds like you need a new needle. Mayb a better cartridge.
SACD still sounds like digital. It's more the revamped recordings than anything about the technology IMO.

SACD's biggest advantage and IMO the ONLY advantage is the utilization of multi channel high resolution sound. Yet I see plenty of 2 channel SACD. Waste of freakin time and money. Which is probably why you see some Sony ES changer models that were $1500.00US going for $400.00Canadian. After hearing it with CD playback it may as well be a $50.00 portable.

Amazingly the Shill magazines raved...likely owned by Sony...after all Sony was caught last year writing reviews for their own products under a false name
post #59 of 65
eric343: Eric... HURRY over to Audiogon! There's a barely used Music Hall MMF-5 table going for $379!

Calanctus: Oris review sites I know of:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hu...ges/10725.html
http://www.bd-design.nl/wwwpages/serial.html
http://www.vt52.com

Kind of hard to find. Word hasn't gotten out about them... yet. The Audio Asylum has plenty of comments.

kelly: The Oris usually has excellent WAF... when fully completed and painted appropriately. I think Michell hated their appearance due to the prodigious amounts of blue painter's duct tape, hanging alligator clips, and temporary paperboard chambers.
post #60 of 65
Quote:
Originally posted by KR...
Well, The greatest source in the known Universe is a "turntable".

I am talking about the almighty, all-powerful :

Rockport Technologies System III Sirius turntable and tonearm

And you too can have it for $73,750



That Linn CD12 for $20,000 doesn't seem too bad of a deal anymore
Um...that's not the best turntable, the best turntable is (arguably) the ClearAudio Master Reference, or that new Gyro top-end model that looks like it's going to induce a few hernias in its lifetime.
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