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inexpensive amp for Senn 580's? - Page 2

post #16 of 49
Quote:
And my statement about "lousy value" is objectively true from the consumer's side. Compare the material value of any headphone amp with a typical integrated. And what else can you do with a headphone amp but listen to headphones? Hey, with an integrated I can listen to headphones AND speakers.
well... an integrated can not directly power headphones. the integrated must have a headphone amp built in (whether it's simply the preamp stage driving the headphones, a resistor network from the power amp, or an enitrely didicated circuit for headphones) otherwise you could not listen to headphones from an integrated at all. perhaps your marantz has a good headphone amp built in, so it would be a gross generalisation to say that integrated amps are better than all headphone amps. perhaps your integrated is a good value, but it does not mean that integrateds are a better value than headphone amps such as you implied in your generalisation.

would you call a seperate power amp a bad value because a receiver has a preamp, a poweramp, a headphone amp and tuner? you could listen to headphones, speakers and you can use them to listen to the radio. or how about a minisystem? it has a receiver, a cd player, tape deck and speakers... is that a bad value?

Quote:
Plus I have umpteen inputs, selectors, tone controls....wow!
well, if the number of features is related to value, then why don't we all just get sony minisystems with all those cool looking buttons?

and btw you can also use a headphone amp as a preamp.

Quote:
How many "veterans" here have actually tested the headphone outputs of mass market integrateds? How about trying a Marantz 4000 just to prove me wrong (fully run in. It took 2 weeks for mine to come right). Then you can speak with authority. I ask nothing more.
i guess i don't have the authority to say whether the Marantz 4000 is is better than the x-cans or not. but do you have the authority to say that headphone amps are a bad value?

it's possible to get someone like thomas to make a headphone amp for under $100, and a gaincard clone power amp for not too much either. throw in a switchbox for a few bucks. put them all together and you have all the funcitonality of an integrated. i wouldn't be surprised if that would outperform more expensive integrated amps. and that would be a good value.
post #17 of 49
Oh dear...

It doesn't matter if one person likes one thing, and one person likes another... I don't know if anyone outside of the UK has Marmite... but, there was an advertising campaign about 6 months ago saying that you either love it, or hate it and its true... and that was part of there selling technique... discrediting there own product!!

Not everyone will like headphone amplifiers... at the end of the day if we all liked the same things, there would just be one manufacturer, and one model of headphones... and maybe one headphone amp, and the whole world would be happy... and... whoops, there goes the objectivity of having these forums in the first place

Smile, and enjoy your music, whichever side of the fence you sit on
post #18 of 49
Quote:
Originally posted by skippy
and btw you can also use a headphone amp as a preamp.
How Skippy? do you mean as a passive pre-amp? I'm not too good with Pres and powers... don't you need a volume control on the pre, that controls the power?
post #19 of 49
Quote:
And my statement about "lousy value" is objectively true from the consumer's side.
No it's not. Your statement cannot be "objectively true" because it's not objective. It violates every rule of economics. In order to judge the "worth" or "value" of a product, you must know who is buying it and what their preferences and definition of "value" are. To someone who views low price more than good sound, many headphone amps would be a "lousy value." To some people, any CD player over $100 would be a bad value. But for someone who views sound as the most important thing, and values sound to a *much* greater extent than low price, a $10,000 headphone amplifier could be a phenomenal value.

What tweaked everyone about your statement is that it is presumptuous -- you presumed to know everyone else's values and somehow make a determination of "value" for everyone else, even though your determination was based solely on your own personal preferences.

Quote:
Compare the material value of any headphone amp with a typical integrated.
Many of us have, and a headphone amp is an incredible improvement to us.

Quote:
And what else can you do with a headphone amp but listen to headphones?
Not a very good argument. What else can I do with a $200 blender but blend? There are lots of things that people buy that do a very specific thing, but do it very well. Some of those tasks can even be performed by other devices. Unfortunately, not as well. So specific devices are often a good value for people because of their better performance.

Quote:
Hey, with an integrated I can listen to headphones AND speakers. Plus I have umpteen inputs, selectors, tone controls....wow!
By that logic, the latest Sony or JVC mini-system with bells and whistles and knobs and flashing lights and buttons should be the greatest value of all...

Quote:
Get my meaning? If my Marantz sounds great to me, why in God's name would I ever contemplate a headphone amp, even one as good as I'm sure you make?
You shouldn't. Some people can't hear a difference; for others, the difference isn't big enough to warrant the expense. If a headphone amp doesn't sound any different to you than the output of your CD player, or not better enough to spend the extra money, you shouldn't buy one. That's why most people on this board encourage people to buy from a dealer that has a return policy.

However, most of the people here *can* hear the difference, and they post their views accordingly. For example, Sennheiser HD600s *cannot* be driven to their potential by a sound card. That's a fact. However, some people insist that they sound the same when driven from a soundcard as when driven from a quality headphone amp. Those people do exist, and their impressions are entirely valid for them. Perhaps at the end of every headphone or amp recommendation, we should start including a disclaimer "Warning: it is possible that you may not hear a difference between Product A and other products."

Quote:
And why am I not allowed to state my opinion on the subject along with everyone else?
You are. People just take exception when you present your opinion as an objective fact, when it is far from being an objective fact.


Quote:
How many "veterans" here have actually tested the headphone outputs of mass market integrateds?
I can't speak for others, but I've tried them on many and a headphone amp has always provided better sound to my ears.
post #20 of 49
// clapping hands
Well-said, MacDEF!
post #21 of 49

Let's all chill out ...

I personally use a headphone amp at work but I do not use one on my main system ( with Grado SR-60, MS II's or Sony V6's). Currently I have an OBH-11 and it does not sound better than the headphone out of my Adcom preamp. That does not mean that other amps may not sound better (or other phones may not sound as good) but I think it does mean that the Adcom has a pretty good headphone out. I know that several NAD models have good headphone outs as well as at least one Sonic Frontiers model. I also think some headphone amps are good deals and others are overpriced. It's a personal opinion and is neither right nor wrong. I'm still going to buy at least one more SS headphone amp (probably HR Little More Power) and a tube amp (probably earmax pro) as well as build myself a portable amp (Hansen PCB based). But I probably won't use any of them on my main system because I like the sound out of my preamp, at least with the phones I have now. I'll have to wait and see how it sounds through the Senn 600's when I get them. IMHO.
post #22 of 49
I look your post as hostile, because you are obviously the same person in that discussion at headwize. It seemed that you were losing your argument, and had to come post here to "get even". There is a whole forum about amp discussions, why didn't you post your message there? Someone asked me for my prices, and i provided a link to a For sale forum post. Right below, you said all amps are bad value, which i could only assume referred to my amps since you decided to post it here.

There are places for these comments, but if you place negative remarks right below a for sale thread, then you are "crapping" thread.

THere isn't a rule against this since it is not in the FS forum, so i had to defend myself.
post #23 of 49
Quote:
Originally posted by Duncan

It doesn't matter if one person likes one thing, and one person likes another... I don't know if anyone outside of the UK has Marmite... but, there was an advertising campaign about 6 months ago saying that you either love it, or hate it and its true... and that was part of there selling technique... discrediting there own product!!

Marmite is garbage. Vegemite rules.

And don't get me started on that Promite ****. That's not even food.
post #24 of 49
I'm not sure what to say about your remarks, Thomas. I believe I did once participate in a similar discussion at Headwize, but it was so long ago I don't remember the details. I don't remember losing the argument (whatever that may mean, since we're talking opinions), and I certainly didn't come over here to "get even". As for interfering with your "For Sale" thread, I honestly didn't notice it. For all I know, your amps may be the greatest ever made, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone fom buying them. However, I still maintain there's another side to be put, and newbies ought to be encouraged to try a few integrateds before committing to headphone only amps. Nad now claims to be able to drive any headphone with their new amps, by which I presume they mean with good sound, or what would be the point? Has anyone tested these out? Is anyone interested? And I ought to clear up one statement that keeps cropping up: the one about material value. By that I meant one thing and one thing only: an integrated simply has more metal and more components and more switches and more knobs etc, etc per dollar. That why I said it was self evident, as it obviously is. I did not mean everyone should buy an integrated for that reason, anymore than everyone should buy a huge car when they only need a compact. I was however questioning the material value of certain headphone amps. You notice my Marantz (which comes with full remote control) and the MF X-cans are the same price here in OZ. Is that logical? Can MF justify this on objective material grounds? I doubt it. Headphone amps are a niche market, and as such tend to attract profiteering--or at least, ask the consumer to pay more for R & D than mainstream lines. Incidentally, for those happy with their headphone amps, you obviously got good value, and good luck to you. Don't feel threatened because I say I prefer my Marantz (which, incidentally, to answer another post, seems to take its output from the power amp..ie, doesn't have a seperate headphone amp). All I wanted was to question the apparently unquestioned notion in all these threads that only a headphone amp will satisfy, or give fine results. That simply isn't true.
post #25 of 49
Quote:
And I ought to clear up one statement that keeps cropping up: the one about material value. By that I meant one thing and one thing only: an integrated simply has more metal and more components and more switches and more knobs etc, etc per dollar. That why I said it was self evident, as it obviously is. I did not mean everyone should buy an integrated for that reason, anymore than everyone should buy a huge car when they only need a compact. I was however questioning the material value of certain headphone amps.
But to come back to this, you simply can't talk about the "material" value of an item that provides a service rather than purely existing as a piece of material.

A diamond in a ring is simply material -- its material value is its value. A brick of gold is purely material. However, cars, computers, shoes, and headphone amps are all products that "do" something -- you pay for what they *do,* not for what they are made of.

If a product that is made of $50 in materials does something better than another product that is made of $200 in materials, people who need/want that something will pay more for the "materially cheaper" product. Value is relative, and material cost is irrelevant. That's just the way capitalism works. good or bad.

In addition, you can't just look at a product's physical properties and judge how much it should "cost." The cost of any item includes the cost of materials, assembly/manufacturing, advertisement and promotion, research and development (which can often be a huge cost), and a myriad of other expenses (salaries of employees, benefits, rent, etc., etc., etc.) You'll never find a product that only costs as much as its materials are worth.
post #26 of 49
pp312: You aren't just stating "your opinion" - your trying to make it seem "right." Last year, I had an S.S. teacher who did that on certain papers (i.e., she flunked several of my papers, when she had a differing opinion). I hated that....

Anywayz - just remember that blanket statements, over-generalisations, and gratuitous comments generally aren't very good when it comes to keeping a discussion alive...
post #27 of 49
Quote:
Last year, I had an S.S. teacher who did that on certain papers (i.e., she flunked several of my papers, when she had a differing opinion). I hated that....
Well, if you were in my class, coolvij, your grade probably would have been higher. I admire students who, at such a young age, can state their opinions and back them up without simply parroting the teacher. Good job!
Sorry...... a bit off topic.
post #28 of 49
Well, if you were joelongwood's class, coolvij, your grade probably would have been higher. He admires students who, at such a young age, can state their opinions and back them up without simply parroting the teacher. Good job!
Sorry...... a bit off topic.

What?! Stop looking at me like that! I'm parroting the teacher for extra credit.
post #29 of 49
lol! jude

thanx for the support, joelongwood - she should've heard that...i dunno.....I would NEVER want to argue with a person like her. good teacher for the masses? maybe - but good "facilitator" of learning? not IMO.....
post #30 of 49
My power amp drives my Beyers much better than the other entry level dedicated amps I've tried...it actually likes higher impedance. But Senns (depending on your taste however), is likely to sound like mud out of higher impedance amps...but some may like it like that I don't know. Personally I felt it sounded slightly muddy even out of the other entry level dedicated amps I've tried, but I just didn't particularly take to those phones.

Now the Grados are phones that are very popularly regarded as NOT needing an amp. However note that one of the best improvements I've heard was with the CHA47 and my pair of Grados! The Senns are popularly regarded as needing an amp. I couldn't get the type of sound I wanted out of any of my jacks I tried so I sold them.

HOWEVER...I do know that Apheared is a Grado Lover and came up with the A47 part of the Cmoy, and it turned out to be a kickass sounding amp especially cost considered. And I also know that Apheared doesn't particularly LIKE his Senns, but being the crazy amp builder he is, went ahead and built a very HD600 oriented amp for them.

I would trust that the likelyhood of getting kickass sound out of an amp designed with HD600's in mind is a lot better than running around plugging them into a variety of integrated jacks. Plenty of integrated jacks have non-existant damping factor and will make the Senns HD600 sound extremely loose, muddy, and uncontrolled, so I can't say it is sound advice to disregard headphone amps in favor of integrated amps. The only exception I would make is that my Beyers sound really nice out of my power amp...however again you just can't make gross generalizations...especially since it isn't THAT easy to find a good power amp for speakers either! Basically just because you had an easy time finding a good jack from an integrated, and a hard time finding a good one from a headphone amp you tried, doesn't mean you should make those generalizations. That would be like saying you never had a bad accident on a motorcycle, but had a bad accident in a volvo, so motorcycles are safer to ride.
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