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Anyone have no surge protection? - Page 4

post #46 of 67
1/26/06 at 1:05am
I bought a PS Audio P500 Powerplant 2 weeks ago (up until now I have been using an AudioPrism Generation III which has all 3 of their protectors and conditioners in it), and the plugs plug in horizontally from the back, so my prongs were hanging halfway out of the outlet. After re-aligning the PS Audio in my rack I went to push in all the plugs securely and whammo ...I blew up my McIntosh pre-amp. McIntosh said it looked like lightning made a direct hit on the distrubution PWB.

So, in this case, surge protection actually hurt me more than helped me. Now I bought 2 Juice Bars and ran them out of the regenerated outlets and all my plugs are sitting vertically instead of horizontally.
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post #47 of 67
1/26/06 at 7:37pm
Also note that some electronic circuits can make power surges. I once repaired a dual Britney server that was always killing hard drives. I borrowed a scope, and I noted that the 12v line had about 2vpp of surges and spikes on it! I wired up an EMI filter and a parallel 10,000uF capacitor (on the input IIRC) into the line going to the voltage regulator. No more reports about hard drives failing.

BTW, with the voltage regulator outputting something like 1.45v at over 100A per CPU, it's quite a wonder how any logic connections can work millimeters away from the high power traces. Of course, it's LVDS, which is very resistant to EMI.
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post #48 of 67
1/27/06 at 9:20pm
Thread Starter 
I've BORROWED an all in one box from my local dealer. As I said earlier I do want a detachable power cord and listened/compared a PS Audio UPC200 and APC H15 hooked up to a McIntosh CD player, McIntosh amplifier set up, driving full range Triangle speakers. Prior to this I was looking at the UPC200 vs the Shunyata Hydra 4 or 6 but I took the opportunity to listen anyway. The dealer said they were suprised that the APC was OK sounding considering it was from a computer surge company. I think it's a glorified Brickwall? I have one for TV, etc. Audio stuff into a Shunyata Guardian.

Comparing there wasn't much difference between the H15 and the UPC. I thought the UPC a bit fuzzier with looser bass, the APC sounded a bit clearer with tighter bass. But then I'm not familiar with the McIntosh/Triangle gear although I've heard them before. They sounded noisy to me on both occasions. (In hindsight a tougher load speaker would have been a better test).

So I took the APC home, if I like it I buy it. I plugged in my amp alone and hated it. Definitely softer and veiled! I prefered the Guardian. I went back and forth a bunch of times and the hate diminished until I wasn't so sure. Now I've plugged eveything that can reach into all 12 outlets and will do some listening over the coming days. I'll just swap amp and phonostage back and forth.

It is a smart little bugger. I might even keep it as a replacement for the Brickwall and continue the search for an audiophile grade box.
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post #49 of 67
1/27/06 at 10:32pm
Thread Starter 
All plugged in and (I do seem to play the same few songs when listening to gear).....
Pot Kettle Black (vinyl) by Wilco sounded slightly warbled in vocals and sibilant. Or could it have always been so but now more clearly revealed? Swap back to Shunyata and warble is gone, a touch sibilant. Witchita Lineman (vinyl) cover by Cash, no warble through APC, it seems a little lighter sounding. Shunyata a little darker, more normal. The Shunyata is my normal.

Yes I shall continue to update hourly for 5 days.

Anyone can chime in about anything at all related to this as it will help me stave off complete surrender to audio-psychosis!
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post #50 of 67
1/28/06 at 2:43am
Plugging everything into my PS Audio P500 was like taking drapes off of my speakers. The improvement is breathtaking.

All audio-psychosis aside, it was like when I went from a Pioneer pre-amp to a McIntosh, and before that, going from my Adcom amp to my Cary. Huge upgrade! But then again, I have 55 year old 2 wire in my apartment. People who have newer decent power might not notice the difference as much.
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post #51 of 67
1/28/06 at 2:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by omedon
What do people think of a UPC-200 group buy?

There was a fellow on audiogon that bought a bulk order from PS Audio. ~10 units I think and sold them off at $320 shipped obo.

He was making a profit so If we could get 10 units or so perhaps we could get them cheaper than that.

Just a thought.
Wow that's cheap! I'd consider a second one @ that price.
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post #52 of 67
1/28/06 at 6:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by immtbiker
Plugging everything into my PS Audio P500 was like taking drapes off of my speakers. The improvement is breathtaking.

All audio-psychosis aside, it was like when I went from a Pioneer pre-amp to a McIntosh, and before that, going from my Adcom amp to my Cary. Huge upgrade! But then again, I have 55 year old 2 wire in my apartment. People who have newer decent power might not notice the difference as much.
Yes I'm also thinking that components with a solid power transformer or whatever are less affected by power conditioning. I may borrow the UPC as well as I have to go there to pick up some $12 tubes that their tech guy says he likes much more than the $60 Mullards that he hates which others love...which he said I can buy as well with a laugh.
They do have the Shunyata Hydra but it's the biggest model and so had not considered due to price. It would be interesting to hear though just to borrow.

Audio-psychosis for me is when tricks of the mind happen as the component isn't distinguishing it's self as clearly better but also not clearly worse. The bottom line on the APC is that unless it's an improvement it goes back and so far it's losing.

EDIT: I borrowed the PS Audio UPC200 also but haven't listened through it yet. I think I know why I prefer the Guardian, because it doesn't screw with the sound. I has no filtration! Just a MOV with LED to let you know when it has taken too many hits and needs replacement.
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post #53 of 67
1/29/06 at 7:24am
I just use a Monster HTS2000 MKII.
It handles the phone line to my DriecTV box as well as all the other stuff.
Computer is plugged into an APC UPS thingy.

I haven't had lightning strike in years. The one I had blew and old TV and a microwave. The TV cost me nothing to repair (there was an automotive type fuse blown), and the microwave cost me 50 bucks to repair (probably the same kind of fuse, but I took it to a shop)
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post #54 of 67
1/29/06 at 8:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.PD
I just use a Monster HTS2000 MKII.
It handles the phone line to my DriecTV box as well as all the other stuff.
Computer is plugged into an APC UPS thingy.

I haven't had lightning strike in years. The one I had blew and old TV and a microwave. The TV cost me nothing to repair (there was an automotive type fuse blown), and the microwave cost me 50 bucks to repair (probably the same kind of fuse, but I took it to a shop)
The dopey thing is that I only just realized (*epiphany*) that I had been enjoying my music for more than a year with the juice straight from the wall no sweetener. No wonder with the AC "conditioned" it sounded weird to me. I haven't listen to the UPC200 yet, it's still in it's box beside my rack.

My dealer said the UPC200 is lousy as is the Shunyata Hydra.
They prefered the less expensive APC. Welcome to bizarro world.
I'll just have to whip out the Q-tips and decide for myself.
(Off topic but isn't it great hearing totally, completely expensive speakers that you hate. ATC's, for practical purposes, zero distortion/zero colouration has ruined me for ordinary (10K+! ) audiophile stuff).

One odd thought occured to me which I'll phone my insurance company and ask about is equipment replacement. How much extra a month to be covered for exploded equipment from misfortune? I had this with camera equipment a bunch of years ago. I'm saying if conditioning boxes under a grand are worse than unsweetened juice and extra insurance is just a few bucks a month, I may get an audiophile grade power bar like the BPT's PPC (Pure Power Center) or PS Audio's Juice bar.



I'm welcoming to anyone pointing out the error of my ways.
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post #55 of 67
1/29/06 at 8:10am
To be honest about the Monster thing I use. It is supposed to clean up the power a bit. I couldn't tell the difference on my audio equipment. But I have low end audio. It did make my TV picture a bit better. Blacker blacks and a wee bit sharper.

If you like the sound better raw, go with raw. I think the value of filtering depends more on how bad your electricity is than anything else.
You must have good juice.
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post #56 of 67
1/29/06 at 8:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.PD
I think the value of filtering depends more on how bad your electricity is than anything else.
You must have good juice.
Apparently so! Who'd have thunk it! When I recognized that the Shunyata Guardian was essentially doing nothing, the APC was doing lots and I prefered the sound of "doing nothing", it was a realization.

But it isn't over yet. I've still have to try the UPC vs nothing vs APC. The APC is cool though letting you know how much current is passing and what percentage of it's capacity is being used. I like it's claimed electronic and physical separation of the twelve outlets into four banks. It's documentation sucks bad though. It doesn't tell you anything, it's like a sales pitch. What is APC's method of surge protection? I have no idea, they don't say!
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post #57 of 67
1/29/06 at 12:58pm
The thing with the P300/500/600/1000 from PS Audio is that they is a power regenerators. Although they do have filters and AC protection, I would think that the fact that all you are getting out of the outlet is pure 117V 60Hz brickwall voltage, it shouldn't have any negative effect on the sound (at least that's what I concur). The improvement should be quite positive being that fluctuating voltage out of the wall (daytime power grids, refrigerators, microwaves) definitely is going to effect the output of components. If vibration effects quality output, then think about voltage drops or peaks.

Again, one can bring up the fact that there are thousands of feet of wiring between your electric company and your wall outlet, and only 4 or 6 feet from the wall to your components. Even though there is a considerable difference in sound quality (IMHO) when using a high quality PC (a whole 'nother discussion) I believe that is due more to a PC's insulation from RFI and the quality of the metal purity when laying along side and on top of 20 interconnects and other PC's.

But...this is a thread about surge protection and not power, however some units do come with both.
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post #58 of 67
1/29/06 at 2:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by immtbiker
The thing with the P300/500/600/1000


Again, one can bring up the fact that there are thousands of feet of wiring between your electric company and your wall outlet, and only 4 or 6 feet from the wall to your components
The P300/500/600/1000 and battery attached version of the APC I'm trying (H15-no UPS/S15 UPS) seem like two approaches to a similar problem, voltage fluctuation and failure. Maybe the APC is leaning in favour of protection and the PS Audio in favour of sonics. I did read the Stereophilr review of the APC S15 which had mammoth mono block amps hooked up to it when they yanked the plug from the wall and all was well.

I'm so bored of the "thousands of feet of wiring between your electric company and your wall outlet", I'm usually too lazy to make a thousands of feet of water pipe and personal water filtration in the kitchen analogy.

One of the things I'm going to do is plug my amp straight into the wall with the Nordost Vishnu and hear the results. Those two are in love!

Here's a question: if a power conditioner, especially a regenerator, is working well, then it shouldn't matter the quality of cord attaching it to the wall outlet? As long as it's sufficient gauge.
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post #59 of 67
1/29/06 at 3:58pm
I have often wondered. Isn't it a bit self defeating to spend alot of money on fancy aftermarket power cords then introduce a surge protection component in the flow? Wouldn't the surge protection power strip degrade the quality of the juice? At what point, quality or price, should you not go below or risk suffering on signal quality down the line?
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post #60 of 67
1/29/06 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeteeth
Here's a question: if a power conditioner, especially a regenerator, is working well, then it shouldn't matter the quality of cord attaching it to the wall outlet? As long as it's sufficient gauge.
Of course. As long as it is a sufficient guage and has adequate shielding, then a high priced cord would be a waste.

I posed this question to the engineers at PS Audio (already knowing full well the answer), asking why they don't offer one of their own $100 power cords on a $2100 unit, and the answer they gave me is the one posed here.
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