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A LC type cart question for the vinyl gurus

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
I recently e-mailed both Benz Micro and Immediasound ref the possible use of their respective carts, i.e. Benz Micro Ace HOMC or Lydian Beta MOMC on my Technics 1200 M3D. Often responses from representatives take awhile, so I am leaving this open to those who may possess knowlegde regarding the match.

(Please note that I like my 1200 and do not wish to change tables of parts thereof, and I am fairly certain that at least the Shure V15 LC cart would work.)

What I don't know is if either the ACE or the Beta may work with the gimbal suspension low-mass tonearm (low friction bearings of 0.007 grams) of the 1200 - I was unable to find any info that would assist.

I am specifically interested in either of these carts - possibly the Glider as well.

Any educated thoughts / guesses ref compatability would be appreciated.

Thanks

~Michael~
post #2 of 14
I am no Guru and especially don't know the specs on the products you refer to.
The choice of cartridge is limited by the effective mass of the tonarm. You should find this spec in the manual. If the effective mass and the dynamic compliance of the cartridge are mismatched you will get tonearm resonances at inappropiate frequencies. There is a diagram in Robert Harley: Complete Guide to High-end Audio. This way you can check yourself if a cartridge is suitable or not. If you post the effective mass, I could look up which compliance range you should look for.
I don't know anything about the Technics table but cartridges like Lydian Beta require top class tables and tonarms, otherwise it is a waist of money at best. And a very good phono amp.
post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I am no Guru and especially don't know the specs on the products you refer to.
The choice of cartridge is limited by the effective mass of the tonarm. You should find this spec in the manual. If the effective mass and the dynamic compliance of the cartridge are mismatched you will get tonearm resonances at inappropiate frequencies. There is a diagram in Robert Harley: Complete Guide to High-end Audio. This way you can check yourself if a cartridge is suitable or not. If you post the effective mass, I could look up which compliance range you should look for.
I don't know anything about the Technics table but cartridges like Lydian Beta require top class tables and tonarms, otherwise it is a waist of money at best. And a very good phono amp.
I suspect that the 1200 / Monolithic combo would not qualify as "top class" or "very good" since together they retail for only about $1,000.00.

Robert Harley and the Stereophile mag crowd define good more in the neighborhood of $5 to $15 K for starters - something along the line of a Clearaudio Level 2 with a Graham 2.2 and maybe a Steelhead to round things out for starters... at least that is what the AA board members suggest.

If I find the info on the arm I'll let you know - I've made some inquiries, but haven't received an answer yet... thanks for the offer to look up the compliance range.

Cheers,

~Michael~
post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
If you post the effective mass, I could look up which compliance range you should look for.
Anders - got it! 12 grams.... I'll do some more research as well....

Thanks again kindly,

Michael
post #5 of 14
We don't have to accept the Sterophile definitions of very good. But I still suspect that Lydian etc. is overkill for this table.

An effective mass of 12 grams is rather nice, about the same as my Rega arm with 11 grams. With 12 grams I get these figures:
Dynamic compliance - resonant frequency
10 - 14Hz
15 - 11.5 Hz
20 - 10 Hz
25 - 9 Hz
30 - 8 Hz

The resonance shall be well below the lowest frequency in the record and above vibration from record warp, footsteps etc.
I think that the above compliances are OK. According to Hifi News test record a resonant frequency between 8 and 15 is desirable.
So the tonearm seems to accept both MC cartridges and more high compliant MM cartridges.
This is the mechanical matching. Next step is to find a cartridge with a performance that is resonable in relation to the quality of the arm and table. Maybee something around $300 rather than a Lydian?

Cheers
Anders
post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
We don't have to accept the Sterophile definitions of very good. But I still suspect that Lydian etc. is overkill for this table.

An effective mass of 12 grams is rather nice, about the same as my Rega arm with 11 grams. With 12 grams I get these figures:
Dynamic compliance - resonant frequency
10 - 14Hz
15 - 11.5 Hz
20 - 10 Hz
25 - 9 Hz
30 - 8 Hz

The resonance shall be well below the lowest frequency in the record and above vibration from record warp, footsteps etc.
I think that the above compliances are OK. According to Hifi News test record a resonant frequency between 8 and 15 is desirable.
So the tonearm seems to accept both MC cartridges and more high compliant MM cartridges.
This is the mechanical matching. Next step is to find a cartridge with a performance that is resonable in relation to the quality of the arm and table. Maybee something around $300 rather than a Lydian?

Cheers
Anders
Anders,

Thank you for the research. I completely agree with you that the Beta may well be a bit overkill. In addition research revealed that it is best suited for medium mass arms. In like manner the ACE is more geared toward medium mass arms as well. However, the Glider is often paired with RB300 and RB600 arms, which have an effective mass of 11 grams - one gram less than the 1200 arm.

The Glider is of course a bit more than, say a Shure V15, but I don't mind investing the additional $350 or so since it is a cart that can always be used in an upgraded table, should I decide to leave the 1200 behind for a Rega P25 or something similar.

In all the retail price of the cart is equal to the price of the arm and table - which I consider reasonable.

Many thanks again for the calculations and help,

Regards,

~Michael~
post #7 of 14
I'm using a Glider M2 with my Rega P3 and I love it. I also have used the Shure V15 and Sumiko Bluepoint Special, but my Glider tracks so well and the combination of this cartridge, TT, and my EAR 834P phono stage just boogies. (I know tuberoller doesn't like my TT or cartridge but...oh well)

post #8 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by RickG
I'm using a Glider M2 with my Rega P3 and I love it. I also have used the Shure V15 and Sumiko Bluepoint Special, but my Glider tracks so well and the combination of this cartridge, TT, and my EAR 834P phono stage just boogies. (I know tuberoller doesn't like my TT or cartridge but...oh well)

Thanks for the info, Rick

I am going to buy myself the Glider for X-mas (I also have to consider another phono, since the current one on my system has a gain of only 36 db). I've had my eye on the Benz for awhile - thanks to the help from Anders I am assured it will work.

Happy listening!

~Michael~
post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by RickG
I'm using a Glider M2 with my Rega P3 and I love it. I also have used the Shure V15 and Sumiko Bluepoint Special, but my Glider tracks so well and the combination of this cartridge, TT, and my EAR 834P phono stage just boogies. (I know tuberoller doesn't like my TT or cartridge but...oh well)

I'm not crazy about the Rega but the Glide is a fairly good cart.It is difficult to match well with some arms and the output spec is way past optimistic.I like the new Dynavectors.they track extremely well and seem to be easy to set up with most arms,even the VPIs.

Some of the very low output cartridges will only help amplify the motor noise that is inherent with the Technics table.If you doubt this,take a stethescope and place it near the arm base,not in an obvious spot near the motor and listen to all the noise that will get amplified along with the signal from the cart.I would stick to a high output cartridge and as little gain as possible.
post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuberoller



Some of the very low output cartridges will only help amplify the motor noise that is inherent with the Technics table.If you doubt this,take a stethescope and place it near the arm base,not in an obvious spot near the motor and listen to all the noise that will get amplified along with the signal from the cart.I would stick to a high output cartridge and as little gain as possible.
Good point about LOMC. BTW, The 1200 has W&F 0.025% with a Peak W&F 0.035%. In like manner rumble -79dB. Not too bad. I am not dating / don't know any Nurses or Doctors at the moment, so I'll wait on the stethescope test.

The ideal would be a low-mass compatible 3.5 mV +, LC stylus cart. That way I won't have to change my nicely burned-in phono.

Here is my setup on that particular system:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3134.html

I heard good things about the Dynavector - esp the 10X4MK2, but this too is only 2.5 mV

Thanks to the input.

Cheers,

~Michael~
post #11 of 14
Nice thread - I've always been intrigued by the thought of coupling a Technics SL-12xxMkII with a very good cartridge, so I'm very interested in the results... Keep posting!

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
post #12 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by lini
Nice thread - I've always been intrigued by the thought of coupling a Technics SL-12xxMkII with a very good cartridge, so I'm very interested in the results... Keep posting!

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
München, eh? I grew up near Frankfurt am Main - in a small town called Bad Vilbel. Small world....

Ref the 1200 - I spoke with 1200 guru Kevin Barrett of KAB Electro Acoustics (KABUSA.com), and he added that the fluid damping kit which he has for the 1200 tonearm (TD-1200) will reduce all low frequency resonance artifacts from the tonearm and assure that practically any cartridge can be fitted with excellent results.

Here is a link to the device:

http://www.kabusa.com/td1200.htm#CTOP

Might be worth a try. BTW, being German myself I still have an attachment to my 1979 DUAL 1257 turntable - just had it cleaned and serviced... still works like a charm!

Tschüss!

~Michael~
post #13 of 14
Greetings to Forida - and thanks for the link! I grew up with several Duals, before I converted to Technics and Thorens - and I've still got my TD-280 MkII. And I've also got my fathers old Braun PS-550. But I always thoguht that a disco Technics would make a nice indestructible machine, if I only knew, whether it could sound good with a decent cartridge. In other words: I've been waiting for that information for years - great! But I guess, I'll start experimenting with some cheaper cartrigdes... And the whole thing will have to wait, until I've clreared up the mess in my place (anybody got a bulldozer? a small one preferably... ).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
post #14 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by lini
Greetings to Forida - and thanks for the link! I grew up with several Duals, before I converted to Technics and Thorens - and I've still got my TD-280 MkII. And I've also got my fathers old Braun PS-550. But I always thoguht that a disco Technics would make a nice indestructible machine, if I only knew, whether it could sound good with a decent cartridge. In other words: I've been waiting for that information for years - great! But I guess, I'll start experimenting with some cheaper cartrigdes...
Manfred / lini
Manfred,

I've tried several inexpensive carts in my 1200 - just to get an idea. I've tried a Audio Technica LM100E MM, a Grado Prestige Blue, and a Shure M94E. Of the three the Shure does the best job - has more detail, tracks best and offers the biggest soundstage.

I am using my Technics for Jazz, so the system I have set for this is simple, but sounds good - here is a link to the system:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3134.html

Good luck with the cleanup....

Ciao,

~Michael~
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